Interesting Situation...and unfortunate

[Rar]

Late in the first overtime of a boys varsity game with the score tied at 47, team A (Visiting team) inbounds the ball from the far end line with 1.94 seconds left on the clock. Instead of throwing it directly inbounds, they toss to another player out of bounds, who then makes the throw in. The interesting part is that the clock keeper turns on the clock when the first throw in to the other out of bounds player was made, thus screwing up (actually the official screwed up by chopping his arm down indicating that the clock should start). The problem is on the thrown in, there was a foul on the defense, which should have been double bonus for team A, thus shooting two with the chance to win. Since the home clock keeper and official screw up however, the visiting team didn't get that foul and the officials simply put the time back on and let the play commence again. Thoughts?

[brandan89]

Originally posted by Rar
Late in the first overtime of a boys varsity game with the score tied at 47, team A (Visiting team) inbounds the ball from the far end line with 1.94 seconds left on the clock. Instead of throwing it directly inbounds, they toss to another player out of bounds, who then makes the throw in. The interesting part is that the clock keeper turns on the clock when the first throw in to the other out of bounds player was made, thus screwing up (actually the official screwed up by chopping his arm down indicating that the clock should start). The problem is on the thrown in, there was a foul on the defense, which should have been double bonus for team A, thus shooting two with the chance to win. Since the home clock keeper and official screw up however, the visiting team didn't get that foul and the officials simply put the time back on and let the play commence again. Thoughts?

Well, putting the time back on the clock was the correct thing to do. Not more they could have done.

[Daryl H. Long]

Sometimes officials are their own worst enemy (ie chopping in time when they should not). Every time there is a throwin folowing a score or awarded score we should be aware of the right for inbounding team to pass the ball along endline to another teammate.

What we do know is the foul occurred DURING the throwin. Therefore I have knowledge that the the foul occurred before the ball was touched on the court so clock should not have started.

Put 1.94 seconds back on the clock. Put A on the line for 2 shots. Any other scenario it is not fair for Team A if Team B's foul is not penalized. The foul cannot be ignored.

[blindzebra]

This has been discussed several times and there is a major disagreement.

By rule it is an official's error and the game is over.

Most feel that the fair thing is to envoke 2-3 and give team A a do-over.

MTD will chime in, incorrectly, that it is a timer's error.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by blindzebra
This has been discussed several times and there is a major disagreement.

By rule it is an official's error and the game is over.

Most feel that the fair thing is to envoke 2-3 and give team A a do-over.

MTD will chime in, incorrectly, that it is a timer's error.

BZ:

You are absolutely correct that I am going to chime in. Daryl and I have discussed this play ad nauseum and Daryl's post is correct. It does not matter whether the official incorrectly signaled the clock to start or the timer started the clock even though the official did not signal the clock to start, the important thing is that the clock was not supposed to start until the throw-in touches or is touched by a player on the court. The game clock started too soon. We know the clock was started incorrectly and we have knowledge as to what time was on the game clock. Mary Struckhoff (NFHS Rules Editor has given me a written confirmation that Daryl's interpretation is correct in an earlier email this season, which I have shared with the Forum.

BZ, you have got to stop giving incorrect information that CANNOT be supported by rule.

MTD, Sr.

[Daryl H. Long]

I agree most would have a do over. Erroneous in my opininion

It is unfortunate that too many officials will do the politically correct thing because they do not want to offend anyone.

It is equally disturbing that many fans and coaches would be happy with the do-over. If both teams believe they were treated fairly you won't hear any complaints.

But my conscience would not allow me to blatantly disreguard what did happen (B fouled A). If I take away A's rightful opportuntity to attempt freethrows they are entitled to by hiding behind "officials error" then I have put A at a disadvantage by ignoring rules.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

BZ:

You are absolutely correct that I am going to chime in. Daryl and I have discussed this play ad nauseum and Daryl's post is correct. It does not matter whether the official incorrectly signaled the clock to start or the timer started the clock even though the official did not signal the clock to start, the important thing is that the clock was not supposed to start until the throw-in touches or is touched by a player on the court. The game clock started too soon. We know the clock was started incorrectly and we have knowledge as to what time was on the game clock. Mary Struckhoff (NFHS Rules Editor has given me a written confirmation that Daryl's interpretation is correct in an earlier email this season, which I have shared with the Forum.

BZ, you have got to stop giving incorrect information that CANNOT be supported by rule.

MTD, Sr.

Yeah that would be an interpretation where .4 seconds come off the clock without knowledge of ACTUAL time off the clock, which has NO RULE SUPPORT WHATSOEVER.

My opinion is supported 100% by the rules. 5-9-1 and caseplay 5.10.1.C.

You give out wrong information more than any poster on this forum. Cylinder of verticality and Blarges just to name two.

[Daryl H. Long]

BZ,

I agree wholeheartedly with the interpretation in case play 5.10.1 Situation C.

Why? Because the official did not call anything. Time ran out. Buzzer. Game over.

The rules do not allow me to penalize after the buzzer something I should have done before the Buzzer.

As I reread Rar's original post I see he fails to say whether the foul occurred before the buzzer or after the buzzer. He also fails to say if the officials actually whistled the foul. If RAR will supply this information I can more accurately give an answer.

My ruling was based on an official actually whistled the foul before the buzzer went off. From there I can correct the Timer's mistake and return the clock to the time I had knowledge of. See Casebook 5.10.1 Situation A. It would be the same answer if the play read B1 fouls A1.

Bottom line is I put time back on based on knowledge and also would award team A the penalty for either the foul or violation.



[Edited by Daryl H. Long on Feb 12th, 2005 at 01:50 AM]

[brandan89]

But if the ball was not "in play" how could the time be running. Yes, the official did chop the time in, but shouldent (s)he put the few seconds back on the clock?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by blindzebra
This has been discussed several times and there is a major disagreement.

By rule it is an official's error and the game is over.

Most feel that the fair thing is to envoke 2-3 and give team A a do-over.

MTD will chime in, incorrectly, that it is a timer's error.

I'm not sure I understand how this is NOT a timing error.

Let's forget all the complicating stuff. What if the T decides to chop in time as he bounces the ball to A1 for the throw-in and the horn goes off to end the game as A1 catches the ball for the throw-in.

Game over? You gonna run into the locker run and shake hands, congratulating each other on another great job?

[mopar60]

Ok, if I understand the sitch correctly I wonder why this a is a correctable error. Since the official started the clock when he should not have.

I'll have to wait until I get my rule book from UPS and dive into this one I guess. Common sense tells me to reset the clock and award 2 shots to A though.

Wingin' it!

On a side note, being a newbie (have not even lost mine yet, will do in March) I find this forum a valuable tool and source of much entertainment regarding my future officiating adventures.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

I'm not sure I understand how this is NOT a timing error.

Let's forget all the complicating stuff. What if the T decides to chop in time as he bounces the ball to A1 for the throw-in and the horn goes off to end the game as A1 catches the ball for the throw-in.

Game over? You gonna run into the locker run and shake hands, congratulating each other on another great job?

5-9-1

The clock shall be started when the official signals time in.

The clock was started when the official signaled time in, so it IS NOT a timer's error, but an official's error which is covered under 5.10.1.C.

By rule the game is over when the horn went off, unless they blew the whistle for the foul, in this case, BEFORE the horn.

This will be where MTD will say that 5-9-2 thru 4 are the governing rules, when in FACT, they are there to tell the official when to signal.

We have argued this case 3 other times over 2 different forums and I'm not going to do it again.

5-9-1 makes it an official's error.

5.10.1.C says an official's error is not correctable.

2-3 is the only way out even though it is covered.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by blindzebra

5-9-1

The clock shall be started when the official signals time in.

The clock was started when the official signaled time in, so it IS NOT a timer's error, but an official's error which is covered under 5.10.1.C.

By rule the game is over when the horn went off, unless they blew the whistle for the foul, in this case, BEFORE the horn.

This will be where MTD will say that 5-9-2 thru 4 are the governing rules, when in FACT, they are there to tell the official when to signal.

We have argued this case 3 other times over 2 different forums and I'm not going to do it again.

5-9-1 makes it an official's error.

5.10.1.C says an official's error is not correctable.

2-3 is the only way out even though it is covered.

Let me try again:

What if the T decides to chop in time as he bounces the ball to A1 for the throw-in and the horn goes off to end the game as A1 catches the ball for the throw-in.

You are R. What do you do? Don't quote me any rules, let's pretend I'm Coach A and you just cost me a playoff spot. You going to explain to me on the court why the game is over? Or you gonna wait for me to come banging on the locker room door?

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Let me try again:

What if the T decides to chop in time as he bounces the ball to A1 for the throw-in and the horn goes off to end the game as A1 catches the ball for the throw-in.

You are R. What do you do? Don't quote me any rules, let's pretend I'm Coach A and you just cost me a playoff spot. You going to explain to me on the court why the game is over? Or you gonna wait for me to come banging on the locker room door?

What part of I'm not arguing this again did you NOT get?

Read my first post, and last one too, see that little 2-3 do-over.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by blindzebra

What part of I'm not arguing this again did you NOT get?

The part where you won't give a straight answer.

Read my first post, and last one too, see that little 2-3 do-over.

I don't have the patience to wade through all those 5.somethings and 2-other things.

You're using 2.3 to do what, exactly? That's all I would like to know.

If it's too much trouble then we'll leave it at that. :shrug: