Interesting Situation...and unfortunate

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

The part where you won't give a straight answer.

I don't have the patience to wade through all those 5.somethings and 2-other things.

You're using 2.3 to do what, exactly? That's all I would like to know.

If it's too much trouble then we'll leave it at that. :shrug:

Just for you Dan.

This case has a new wrinkle, the foul. We also do not know if the horn sounded BEFORE the foul or AFTER.

5-9-1 tells us when the timer starts the clock, so by RULE, the timer started the clock correctly.

5-9-4 tells us that the OFFICIAL signaled the clock to start incorrectly, making this an OFFICIAL'S error.

5.10.1.C tells us that an official's error IS NOT CORRECTABLE, so by rule there is no way to fix this mistake.

Technically since 5.10.1.C deals with a count and not an erroneous chop, 2-3 could be envoked.

What we choose to do with 2-3 is another debate. In the first two arguments time expired before team A got the inbound pass and there was no foul. All that could be done in that case would be a do-over, time back to what it was before the throw-in and team A's ball with endline privleges.

In this case, horn before foul do-over.

Horn after foul, shoot the free throws, and I'm leaning toward putting the time back on the clock.

[Rar]

One poster asks for additional information. Even though it was in the original post, I'll repeat it more clearly. Yes the foul occurred AFTER the buzzer and yes it was whistled.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by blindzebra

Just for you Dan.

This case has a new wrinkle, the foul. We also do not know if the horn sounded BEFORE the foul or AFTER.

5-9-1 tells us when the timer starts the clock, so by RULE, the timer started the clock correctly.

5-9-4 tells us that the OFFICIAL signaled the clock to start incorrectly, making this an OFFICIAL'S error.

5.10.1.C tells us that an official's error IS NOT CORRECTABLE, so by rule there is no way to fix this mistake.

Technically since 5.10.1.C deals with a count and not an erroneous chop, 2-3 could be envoked.

What we choose to do with 2-3 is another debate. In the first two arguments time expired before team A got the inbound pass and there was no foul. All that could be done in that case would be a do-over, time back to what it was before the throw-in and team A's ball with endline privleges.

In this case, horn before foul do-over.

Horn after foul, shoot the free throws, and I'm leaning toward putting the time back on the clock.

Look, I tried to uncomplicate this with a simple play. You continue to keep it complicated. So let's try 1 more time. No foul. No running the endline. A simple throw-in by A1 on his endline with seconds left in the game. And the T decides to chop in time as he bounces the ball to A1 for the throw-in and the horn goes off to end the game as A1 catches the ball for the throw-in. We have an official's error which you claim cannot be corrected. So by rule, you claim, the game's over.

You are R. What do you do? Don't quote me any rules, let's pretend I'm Coach A and you just cost me a playoff spot. You going to explain to me on the court why the game is over? Or you gonna wait for me to come banging on the locker room door?

[Rar]

I'm a believe in officials do not cost teams games...ever. This situation was just bad though. The officials were all inexperienced and relatively new at the varsity level. They lost control of the game early and there were elbows flying, curse words coming out, and coachs going livid all going unpunished. It was one of the more poorly officiated HS games i've seen, and I dont' really see a lot that are poorly officiated. The timer was screwing up all game (except in the situation I proposed, it was the officials fault no doubt). I can't see how you can argue this as the timers mistake, when the timer starts the clock BECAUSE of the official's chop. This makes it T's fault. The trail in this case was the Referee for the game.

Bottom line, if the rules are truly on the side of no repeat and just end the game as some of you suggest, I couldn't accept that as an offiical. I don't think the NFHS made rules conceiving of this situation. I know an NFHS basketball board member, and I know that if it was her team (she coachs) that was getting screwed, she wouldn't stand for it.

[Maverick]

It would appear to me that the R could invoke 2-5-5:

"The referee shall ... Decide matters upon which the timer and scorer disagree and correct obvious timing errors."

That rule doesn't state whose error can be corrected, only that the R can correct obvious timing errors which we definitely have. Since the foul was after the buzzer, I would probably put 1.94 seconds back on the clock and start from there since we couldn't be sure if the foul would have occured before or after the clock *should* have expired. Just my .02.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Rar
I'm a believe in officials do not cost teams games...ever. This situation was just bad though. The officials were all inexperienced and relatively new at the varsity level. They lost control of the game early and there were elbows flying, curse words coming out, and coachs going livid all going unpunished. It was one of the more poorly officiated HS games i've seen, and I dont' really see a lot that are poorly officiated. The timer was screwing up all game (except in the situation I proposed, it was the officials fault no doubt). I can't see how you can argue this as the timers mistake, when the timer starts the clock BECAUSE of the official's chop. This makes it T's fault. The trail in this case was the Referee for the game.

Bottom line, if the rules are truly on the side of no repeat and just end the game as some of you suggest, I couldn't accept that as an offiical. I don't think the NFHS made rules conceiving of this situation. I know an NFHS basketball board member, and I know that if it was her team (she coachs) that was getting screwed, she wouldn't stand for it.

Read 5.10.1.C this play is no different, in both cases an official's error caused the game to end.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Look, I tried to uncomplicate this with a simple play. You continue to keep it complicated. So let's try 1 more time. No foul. No running the endline. A simple throw-in by A1 on his endline with seconds left in the game. And the T decides to chop in time as he bounces the ball to A1 for the throw-in and the horn goes off to end the game as A1 catches the ball for the throw-in. We have an official's error which you claim cannot be corrected. So by rule, you claim, the game's over.

You are R. What do you do? Don't quote me any rules, let's pretend I'm Coach A and you just cost me a playoff spot. You going to explain to me on the court why the game is over? Or you gonna wait for me to come banging on the locker room door?

What do the officials in case play 5.10.1.C say?

Fairness and explanations aside, your play is no different than 5.10.1.C.

By rule the game is over and that is all you can tell them.

In practice I'm giving a do-over, just like in the play that started this thread.

I don't think it is supported by rule, but it is the fair thing to do, so I'm fudging with 2-3.

[Maverick]

Originally posted by blindzebra


Read 5.10.1.C this play is no different, in both cases an official's error caused the game to end.

Yes, please do read 5.10.1.C. It states "There is no provision for the correction of an error made in the official's accuracy in counting seconds." Our situation has nothing to do with the official's accuracy in counting seconds.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Maverick

Yes, please do read 5.10.1.C. It states "There is no provision for the correction of an error made in the official's accuracy in counting seconds." Our situation has nothing to do with the official's accuracy in counting seconds.

The reason it relates is because it is rules support for not being able to correct an official's error in putting time back on the clock.

I guess the, "The clock may not be reset as there are no rule provisions to do this," just escaped your attention?

It can't be fixed because it was not a TIMER'S error, and neither is the case we are discussing.

[Maverick]

Originally posted by blindzebra

The reason it relates is because it is rules support for not being able to correct an official's error in putting time back on the clock.

I guess the, "The clock may not be reset as there are no rule provisions to do this," just escaped your attention?

It can't be fixed because it was not a TIMER'S error, and neither is the case we are discussing.

No, it didn't esape my attention. What you're not seeing is that the explaination for it in the next two sentenses. They both state specifically that the reason that situation can't be corrected is because there aren't provisions for correcting an error in the official's count. Our situation doesn't have anything to do with an official's count. It doesn't say anthing about an official correcting there error in starting the clock.

Let's try this situation: There is 2.1 seconds left if the game with B leading 45-44. Your are the R and Lead. Team A has the ball ready for throw in in their back court. A1 (with the ball for the throw in) rolls the ball down the court. A2 lets it roll before touching it but the T inadvertantly chops the clock in. The buzzer goes off before A2 (or anyone else) even touches the ball. What do you do?

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Maverick

No, it didn't esape my attention. What you're not seeing is that the explaination for it in the next two sentenses. They both state specifically that the reason that situation can't be corrected is because there aren't provisions for correcting an error in the official's count. Our situation doesn't have anything to do with an official's count. It doesn't say anthing about an official correcting there error in starting the clock.

Let's try this situation: There is 2.1 seconds left if the game with B leading 45-44. Your are the R and Lead. Team A has the ball ready for throw in in their back court. A1 (with the ball for the throw in) rolls the ball down the court. A2 lets it roll before touching it but the T inadvertantly chops the clock in. The buzzer goes off before A2 (or anyone else) even touches the ball. What do you do?

I'm not arguing this any more, it is the same situation you did not change a stinking thing.

5-9-1 says the timer starts the clock on the official's signal.

5.10.1.C says we CANNOT put time back on an OFFICIAL'S ERROR.

I have said 4 or 5 times in this stupid thread that by rule the game is over...PAY ATTENTION NOW...in practice I'd go to 2-3 and give a do-over.

[Maverick]

Originally posted by blindzebra


I'm not arguing this any more, it is the same situation you did not change a stinking thing.

5-9-1 says the timer starts the clock on the official's signal.

5.10.1.C says we CANNOT put time back on an OFFICIAL'S ERROR.

I have said 4 or 5 times in this stupid thread that by rule the game is over...PAY ATTENTION NOW...in practice I'd go to 2-3 and give a do-over.

That's my point, it's the same situation. You'd go back and start over. Good. I think the error you're making is saying we can't put time back on the clock is you're basing it on the CASE BOOK. In the case described in 5.10.1.C, you wouldn't. But we have a different CASE to consider. It never says anything about not being able to put time back on the clock because of an official's error. Only that the time can't be based on how an official counts.

[Daryl H. Long]

Maverick,

Glad someone else has taken BZ to task about his misapplication of which rule covers the situation.

In an earlier post I said this play more closely resembles 5.10.1 Situation A because of the addition of foul before the buzzer.

Sinse Rar (the original poster) has clarified questions I asked and has stated now that the foul occurred after the buzzer to signal the clock ran out.

In that case put the time back on the clock and allow A the throwin they were entitled to. i don't call this a "do over" because they never got to "do" in the first place.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Daryl H. Long
Maverick,

Glad someone else has taken BZ to task about his misapplication of which rule covers the situation.

In an earlier post I said this play more closely resembles 5.10.1 Situation A because of the addition of foul before the buzzer.

Sinse Rar (the original poster) has clarified questions I asked and has stated now that the foul occurred after the buzzer to signal the clock ran out.

In that case put the time back on the clock and allow A the throwin they were entitled to. i don't call this a "do over" because they never got to "do" in the first place.

You are spending too much time around MTD, if you think the only case play covering an OFFICIAL'S error causing time to expire, is misapplied in a thread about an OFFICIAL'S error causing time to expire.

Compare the comment under timing mistakes in the case book, 5-9-1 in the rule book, and what happened in the play in question and it all equals one thing...AN OFFICIAL'S ERROR!

[Maverick]

Originally posted by blindzebra

You are spending too much time around MTD, if you think the only case play covering an OFFICIAL'S error causing time to expire, is misapplied in a thread about an OFFICIAL'S error causing time to expire.

Compare the comment under timing mistakes in the case book, 5-9-1 in the rule book, and what happened in the play in question and it all equals one thing...AN OFFICIAL'S ERROR!

I don't think anyone is arguing that it is not an official's error. But I haven't seen any rule book reference saying you can't correct an official's error in this situation.