T's

[Ralph Stubenthal]

When a player or players enter the floor and their numbers are not in the book, it equates to 1 T for all the offenses. If, a few minutes later, another player enters the game without his number in the book, another T is issued. Correct or not? Or is it just 1 T for the whole night?

[Richard Ogg]

The T is administrative, and you only have one per team. The "error" is having to change the book. Once you penalize a team for that there is no more penalty. So, another T is not issued.

(This is explained in rule 10 on the issue I think.)

[JRutledge]

about that. If you have A1 come into the game with a wrong number in the first quarter, and A6 comes in later in the fourth quarter, you have to give 2 different Ts. It is only one T if the actions are like all starters or more than one starter is wrong and you notice as the game starts or after the 10 min. mark before the game. But the book can be incorrect and if the game starts and players come in at different time, you must give a T for each instance (not necessarily player) it happens.

Originally posted by Richard Ogg
The T is administrative, and you only have one per team. The "error" is having to change the book. Once you penalize a team for that there is no more penalty. So, another T is not issued.

(This is explained in rule 10 on the issue I think.)

[mick]

Originally posted by JRutledge
about that. If you have A1 come into the game with a wrong number in the first quarter, and A6 comes in later in the fourth quarter, you have to give 2 different Ts. It is only one T if the actions are like all starters or more than one starter is wrong and you notice as the game starts or after the 10 min. mark before the game. But the book can be incorrect and if the game starts and players come in at different time, you must give a T for each instance (not necessarily player) it happens.

Rut,
That's the way I understand it, also.
mick

[BktBallRef]

Sorry mick and Rut but that's incorrect.

If the scorer has not been supplied with the name and number of every player and the starters by the 10 minute mark, it is a technical foul. (10-1-1) After the ten minute mark, only one technical foul can be called for a scorebook infraction, no matter how many there are.(10-1-2a-e) So, you can have two T's on the book, one at the 10 minute mark and one more after that. That's it, no matter how many more changes you have to make in the book.

10-1
A team shall not:
ART. 1 Fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each squad member who may participate and designate the five starting players at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time.
ART. 2 After the time limit specified in Article 1:

a. Change a designated starter unless necessitated as in 3-2-2a.
b. Add a name to the squad list.
c. Require the scorer to change a squad member's or player's number in the scorebook.
d. Require a player to change to the number in the scorebook.
e. Have identical numbers on squad members and/or players.

PENALTY: (All articles) Two free throws plus ball for division-line throw-in. (Art. 1) One foul for both requirements. (Art. 2) One foul only per team regardless of the number of infractions. (Art. 2a) Penalized if discovered before ball becomes live to start game. (Arts. 1, 2b, c, d) Penalized when they occur. (Art. 2e) Penalized when discovered.

[JRutledge]

TH,

That is not what is being asked. We are not talking about changes after the 10 min. mark, we are talking about players that come into the game after the game starts, no one noticed that number 23 and 45 were in the book. Then when in the first quarter 45 comes in the game and not listed, that is a T. Then number 23 comes into the game at the fourth quarter, that is another T.

Now if they both come into the game at the same time, one T for the mistake. Mick and I are not talking about changes to the book, we are talking about substitutions and I believe that is the question that was asked about, substitutions.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by JRutledge
TH,

That is not what is being asked. We are not talking about changes after the 10 min. mark, we are talking about players that come into the game after the game starts, no one noticed that number 23 and 45 were in the book. Then when in the first quarter 45 comes in the game and not listed, that is a T. Then number 23 comes into the game at the fourth quarter, that is another T.

Now if they both come into the game at the same time, one T for the mistake. Mick and I are not talking about changes to the book, we are talking about substitutions and I believe that is the question that was asked about, substitutions.

Jeff,

You can call a T at the 10 minute mark if the criteria found in 10-1-1 is not met.

After the 10 minute mark until the end of the game, you can only have one T on the score book for any of the reasons listed in 10-1-2a-e.

It doesn't matter how many subs come in that are not in the book. It doesn't matter how many numbers are wrong. It doesn't matter if you have 3 pairs of players who have the same number. Only one T can be assessed after the 10 minute mark until the end of the game, no matter how many changes are made in the book.

If you disagree, that's fine. But provide a rule reference or case book play to back it up. That way, we can all understand what rule you're basing your opinion on.

TH

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 3rd, 2001 at 01:46 AM]

[Ralph Stubenthal]

Boy, I hate it when it's like this. Mick and Rut on one side and BBallRef on the other. All 3 of you guys are the answer men. But who's right this time? Which way is it? I tend to agree with BBR that is is probably only 1 T per game by what I can understand from the book. But it just doesn't seem right for it to be this way. If this is allowed, the coach could start pulling people out of the stands and putting them on the floor as long as they have a uniform. To me the rule is just not that clear.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Ralph Stubenthal
If this is allowed, the coach could start pulling people out of the stands and putting them on the floor as long as they have a uniform. To me the rule is just not that clear.

I don't know about anywhere else, but I believe the CT state association handles this one with an automatic forfeit of any game played with ineligible players.

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by Ralph Stubenthal
But it just doesn't seem right for it to be this way. If this is allowed, the coach could start pulling people out of the stands and putting them on the floor as long as they have a uniform.

There are other rules, which you do not enforce, that deal with who is eligible to play. If a coach plays ineligible players in any league at any level that I have coached, it results in a forfeit. So the only issue should be that eligible team members are not in the book and the book needs to be fixed, because the coach can't just put anyone who happens to be in the arena into the game.

As for the technical rule, I always thought that it worked the way Rut has it. But this discussion makes it clear that the rule is not.

[Brian Watson]

I think we are confusing two different situations and their penalties.

When is there an illegal sub? When you don't report or if you come in before we beckon. I will split hairs and consider the following to really be an illegal sub: If you are already DQ'd, change numbers (except when there is a blood or damage issue), or wear an illegal uniform (number, colors, design etc.). In two of these cases you issue a T to the player when they occur, if you snooze you lose the T when the ball becomes live (for all the nit pickers, yes, you give the t when discovered and the head coach would get an indirect if the DQ'd player came back in). You can issue as many of these T's as the coach is dumb enough to allow .

Now, a team is assessed one T for the whole game if they change a starter w/o just cause (injury, illness, etc), add a name(s) to the book, change the player number in the book, change the player uni to match the book, or have identical numbers in the book. There is no live ball restriction to this rule, it is assessed when it occurs or is discovered.

In the situation listed earlier if two new players come in a different times, there would be only one T total. This would be for adding players to the book after the 10 minute mark.


On a whole different tangent these rules do become intertwined and a problem in regard to player numbers. If A comes in wearing 3 and he should have been 1, and the coach tells us his lineup was wrong change the book we will hit the player with a T (10-3-1) and the team with a T (10-2-2-c). If later on another player comes in wearing the wrong number and we have to change the book, we just hit the player because the maximum 1 team T had been assessed.

Or worse, A1 comes in and play starts. During the first dead ball the scorer calls us over and tells us there is no A1 in the book. It is too late to T the player, but we can still hit the team with the T (as long as a team T had not been given earlier for the 10-2-2 rule).

[Edited by Brian Watson on Jan 3rd, 2001 at 08:54 AM]

[mick]

Originally posted by JRutledge
TH,

That is not what is being asked. We are not talking about changes after the 10 min. mark, we are talking about players that come into the game after the game starts, no one noticed that number 23 and 45 were in the book. Then when in the first quarter 45 comes in the game and not listed, that is a T. Then number 23 comes into the game at the fourth quarter, that is another T.

Now if they both come into the game at the same time, one T for the mistake. Mick and I are not talking about changes to the book, we are talking about substitutions and I believe that is the question that was asked about, substitutions.

Could this be?
At the end of the 1st quarter, all the team members put on #2 and there is one technical foul issued.
After halftime has started, all team members put on #4. No technicals. Each sub plays and is wearing #4. Each sub comes in at a legal dead ball. No technicals?
At the end of the third, all the players on the floor are wearing #22.
Do we have to go to Rule 2-3? If we do then we have no guidelines for penalties. What am I missing?

[Indy_Ref]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brian Watson
[B]I think we are confusing two different situations and their penalties.

When is there an illegal sub? When you don't report or if you come in before we beckon. I will split hairs and consider the following to really be an illegal sub: If you are already DQ'd, change numbers (except when there is a blood or damage issue), or wear an illegal uniform (number, colors, design etc.). In two of these cases you issue a T to the player when they occur, if you snooze you lose the T when the ball becomes live (for all the nit pickers, yes, you give the t when discovered and the head coach would get an indirect if the DQ'd player came back in). You can issue as many of these T's as the coach is dumb enough to allow .

Now, a team is assessed one T for the whole game if they change a starter w/o just cause (injury, illness, etc), add a name(s) to the book, change the player number in the book, change the player uni to match the book, or have identical numbers in the book. There is no live ball restriction to this rule, it is assessed when it occurs or is discovered.

In the situation listed earlier if two new players come in a different times, there would be only one T total. This would be for adding players to the book after the 10 minute mark.


On a whole different tangent these rules do become intertwined and a problem in regard to player numbers. If A comes in wearing 3 and he should have been 1, and the coach tells us his lineup was wrong change the book we will hit the player with a T (10-3-1) and the team with a T (10-2-2-c). If later on another player comes in wearing the wrong number and we have to change the book, we just hit the player because the maximum 1 team T had been assessed.

Or worse, A1 comes in and play starts. During the first dead ball the scorer calls us over and tells us there is no A1 in the book. It is too late to T the player, but we can still hit the team with the T (as long as a team T had not been given earlier for the 10-2-2 rule).

[Edited by Indy_Ref on Jan 4th, 2001 at 11:18 AM]

[BktBallRef]

Guys,

Some of you are confusing two different issues and rules.

mick,

Players can't play with the same numbers. Hopefully, if 5 players wearing #2 or # 4 or #22 walked onto the floor you would make them change before you started play.

Players can't change their numbers without reporting to the scorer. If a player is forced to change a jersey because of a torn shirt or blood, there is no T. If the wrong number is in the book, there is only one T called no matter how many times it happens. (10-1-2) If he changes to deceive, then we have a player T under 10-3-1. This completely different sitch.

Originally posted by Brian Watson

On a whole different tangent these rules do become intertwined and a problem in regard to player numbers. If A comes in wearing 3 and he should have been 1, and the coach tells us his lineup was wrong change the book we will hit the player with a T (10-3-1) and the team with a T (10-2-2-c). If later on another player comes in wearing the wrong number and we have to change the book, we just hit the player because the maximum 1 team T had been assessed.

Or worse, A1 comes in and play starts. During the first dead ball the scorer calls us over and tells us there is no A1 in the book. It is too late to T the player, but we can still hit the team with the T (as long as a team T had not been given earlier for the 10-2-2 rule).

Brian,

I'm afraid you're mistaken on both of the situations.

If a player's number is wrong in the book, it is not a T on the player. Read the note to mick above for a clearer understanding of when to enforce 10-3-1.

If a player is added to the scorebook, the T must be called when the name is added. It doesn't matter whether the player has played or not. You're correct that he is legally in the game when the ball has become live. But if he's not in the book, the scorer should notify the nearest official and he should call a T and add the name to the scorebook. It is not to late to call the T and it is not a T on the player. If a coach walks up to the scorer in the middle of the first qtr. and says I need to add #12 to the book, she must add him. But she must also inform tan official at the next dead ball so the T can be assessed. If she doesn't, then it's too late. The T is assessed based on when the name is put in the book, not on when and whether the player plays or not. I offer the casebook play below as proof. In fact, several of the case book plays under 3.2 offer insight as to handle these plays.

3.2.2C. Play: Team A, No. 14, reports and is beckoned onto the court and the ball is put in play with a throw-in. The scorer beckons the referee at the first dead ball and reports that there is no No. 14 listed in the scorebook. Ruling: Number 14 became a player when the ball became live, however, since his or her name and number must now be entered into the scorebook, a technical foul is charged to Team A. (10-1-2b)

Ralph,

I don't have a problem with anyone disagreeing with me. It's a discussion board. We're going to have disagreements. That's how we learn.

I pride myself on studying and understanding the rule book. If that's being an answer man, then I guess I am. I always back up what I'm saying with a rule or case book reference. I wish others would do the same. If more people would research their stand before posting, we would have fewer disagreements. Everyone has an opinion but not everyone can back up what they're saying.

BTW, thanks for agreeing with me.

Tony

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 3rd, 2001 at 09:45 AM]

[mick]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Guys,

If a coach walks up to the scorer in the middle of the first qtr. and says I need to add #12 to the book, she must add him. But she must also inform tan official at the next dead ball so the T can be assessed.

3.2.2C. Play: Team A, No. 14, reports and is beckoned onto the court and the ball is put in play with a throw-in. The scorer beckons the referee at the first dead ball and reports that there is no No. 14 listed in the scorebook. Ruling: Number 14 became a player when the ball became live, however, since his or her name and number must now be entered into the scorebook, a technical foul is charged to Team A. (10-1-2b)


[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 3rd, 2001 at 09:45 AM]

Tony,
If #12 is added at one point (1st Qtr), and due to a short bench and foul trouble, Coach adds JV player #14 (3rd Qtr), and later adds JV player #10 (4th Qtr),
Then you are calling one team Technical, and I want three?

Is that still our misunderstanding?
mick