correctable error

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

While the officials often check the book and confer with the scorers' table during halftime, they do not "approve" the halftime score.

Really? Are you sure?
2-5-7 Referee's Duties During Game
"... Check and approve the score at the end of each half."

Sure looks like it to me!

[cloverdale]

it took a couple of minutes but...as soon as I hit the enter button I realized that you couldn't have a p/foul because the ball was dead...the thread started to unravel when I once again reread 5-6-4 and seen your point to a tie game vs shooting to determine an extra period. Thank you for your input and helping me to get it right!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
[/B]

If they shoot BEFORE THE INTERMISSION and at the basket which the team was shooting during the 1st and 2nd quarters, it certainly looks like those FTs should be considered part of the first half/2nd quarter.

Therefore, I believe that my reasoning to consider the mistimed FTs to be part of the 2nd quarter, especially if they were attempted at the same basket with no change of ends, and chalk it up as an officials mistake, makes the most sense. We know that the shouldn't have done it this way, but they did, and now we are stuck with it.


[/B][/QUOTE]Nevada, you're completely and conveniently ignoring rule 5-6 and casebook plays 5.6CommentB and 6.3.1SitB again. You know, the rules that tells you when a quarter ENDS and how to administer technical fouls after a quarter ENDS? I've given you answers straight from the rules. I'm tired of quoting the same ones while you try to find some more irrelevant rules language to bend to try and fit your fantasy. Of course the timing of shooting the FT's was an official's mistake. But the officials made that mistake AFTER the second period ENDED. Compounding that mistake by giving an AP would be YOUR mistake and YOUR mistake alone! I've been repeating myself and repeating myself for the last 24 hours on this one and I've got nothing more to add. Believe what you want to believe. I quite simply do NOT agree with ANYTHING that you have stated so far.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Mar 18th, 2004 at 02:48 AM]

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Nevada, you're completely and conveniently ignoring rule 5-6 and casebook plays 5.6CommentB and 6.3.1SitB again. You know, the rules that tells you when a quarter ENDS and how to administer technical fouls after a quarter ENDS?

On the contrary, I already stated why those plays do not provide a conclusive ruling on this senario. Here is what I said before:

Originally posted by Nevadaref
I do not believe that 5-6-4 or the Case Book play you quoted instructs us as what to do after the free throws have been shot at the wrong time. They both only tell us how it should be done if nothing gets screwed up. In the absence of a clear proceedure such as is outlined in 2-10 for fixing a correctable error or a Case Book play similar to 8.7 Sit B, which tells us how to treat these mistimed FTs, it will have to continue to be a difference of opinion.

But I'll say it again, in short, in not one of those references do the officials mistakenly award the FTs BEFORE the intermission. Therefore, none of the rules you quote tell us how to deal with this screwed up play we are discussing.

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Of course the timing of shooting the FT's was an official's mistake. But the officials made that mistake AFTER the second period ENDED.

We agree upon the facts that a mistake was made by the officials and that by rule the 2nd quarter had ended. So you have a rule that you can point to that says the mistake was made AFTER the 2nd quarter ended; however, what you fail to see is that there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that you can point to that says that the mistake was made AFTER the 3rd quarter had started. You keep saying that the 2nd quarter ended and I keep saying that the 3rd quarter hadn't yet started. For heaven's sake we haven't even had the halftime intermission yet! Both points seem right. Just for once try to view it from the opposite direction.
Ask yourself, "Had the 3rd quarter began when the officials administered the FTs for the T BEFORE THE HALFTIME INTERMISSION?" I don't think so. I don't like the idea that the 10-minute halftime intermission would have to be interpreted to take place DURING the 3rd quarter, but you are welcome to have a different opinion.
The bottom line is that I believe that the FTs were mistakenly treated as if they were "related activity" of the 2nd quarter, even though they should not have been, and because that is how they were ACTUALLY administered, that is how they need to be recorded in the scorebook, approved by the referee at the end of the half, and thought of for applying 5-6-3 (no part of penalty carries over from one quarter to the next).

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Compounding that mistake by giving an AP would be YOUR mistake and YOUR mistake alone!

Unless, of course, the NFHS writes a new Case Book play on how to handle this mistake and my way turns out to be the right way. Then you will stand with the cheese.

Lastly, I'd like to add the you should notice that during the whole discussion I have never said that you are flat out wrong. I believe that you have made many good points, and I value your opinions, even if I disagree with them. Thank you for the time you spent debating this goofy play with me.

[Jurassic Referee]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nevadaref

Originally posted by Nevadaref
The bottom line is that I believe that the FTs were mistakenly treated as if they were "related activity" of the 2nd quarter, even though they should not have been, and because that is how they were ACTUALLY administered, that is how they need to be recorded in the scorebook, approved by the referee at the end of the half, and thought of for applying 5-6-3 (no part of penalty carries over from one quarter to the next).

[/B]

Ah, I think that I'm finally seeing the light.

Nevadaref is actually Bullwinkle J. Moose. After the second quarter ended, Bullwinkle's partner- Rocky the Flying Squirrel- called a T on an assistant coach. Then Bullwinkle and Rocky jumped into their Wayback Time Machine, dialed it to "Second Quarter" and went back in time to shoot the free throws for the technical.

Makes sense now.

[cmathews]

JR, um not to belittle your interpretation of how the throws could have taken place in the 2nd quarter, but Rocky and Bullwinkle didn't use the wayback machine. That honor and privelage was reserved for Sherman and the Professor. While they were indeed a part of the Rocky and Bullwinkle show, they didn't allow the critters to use the ole wayback machine... Oh and another point if the 2nd quarter did indeed end as Nevadaref pointed out just a couple posts ago...doesn't that mean we should NOT use the AP to continue the 3rd quarter??

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by cmathews
1) JR, um not to belittle your interpretation of how the throws could have taken place in the 2nd quarter, but Rocky and Bullwinkle didn't use the wayback machine. That honor and privelage was reserved for Sherman and the Professor. While they were indeed a part of the Rocky and Bullwinkle show, they didn't allow the critters to use the ole wayback machine...

2) Oh and another point if the 2nd quarter did indeed end as Nevadaref pointed out just a couple posts ago...doesn't that mean we should NOT use the AP to continue the 3rd quarter??

1) I stand corrected, and also in sheer admiration and awe of your vast knowledge of the Rocky and Bullwinkle show. I was more a fan of Dudley Do-Right and his ongoing fight with the forces of evil, personified by Natasha Fatale and Boris Badenov,as well as that dastardly villain- Snively Whiplash- who was was always tying Inspector Fenwick's daughter, the lovely and virginal Nell, to the railway tracks.
-PS- Trivia Time- What was the name of Dudley Do-Right's horse?

2) I don't know. I'm confused as hell now, and I gotta admit it. Something happened after something ended, so that means that the something that happened after something ended is really part of the something that happened before something ended.......

[cmathews]

JR, I will have to acquiesce to your Doo Right trivia knowledge....I can not come up with the name of the horse without of course googling LOL....

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by cmathews
JR, I will have to acquiesce to your Doo Right trivia knowledge....I can not come up with the name of the horse without of course googling LOL....

True fans don't have to Google!

[BoomerSooner]

This is how I see it and warning I lean towards Nevadaref's interp, but make a slight concession to Jurassic. First of all I agree that the FT's shouldn't be considered part of the 2nd Q, however that being said, I don't feel they are part of the 3rd Q either. IMO, they are part of the 1st half, having come prior to the required intermission between halves. If you consider them part of the 3rd Q/2nd Half you have added 2 more mistakes to your list. You have ignored the required 10 minute intermission between halves and added an unapproved 10 minute break to the beginning of the 3rd Q. All this being said, I think to maintain the integrity of the intermission, you must go to the arrow to start the 3rd Q. Fortunatly though I think this sitch is easily corrected by the previously mentioned wrong basket correctable error scenario. I wouldn't want to be in this position though. No matter how you handle it both coachs will have beefs.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
I was more a fan of Dudley Do-Right and his ongoing fight with the forces of evil, personified by Natasha Fatale and Boris Badenov,

-PS- Trivia Time- What was the name of Dudley Do-Right's horse?

Did Dudley ever do battle with Boris and Natasha? They were more interested in Moose and Squirrel. I'm pretty sure they neve made it into The Great White North, you hoser.

Was the horse named Horse?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

1) Did Dudley ever do battle with Boris and Natasha? They were more interested in Moose and Squirrel. I'm pretty sure they never made it into The Great White North, you hoser.

2) Was the horse named Horse?

1) Hmmmmmm, upon further review........

2) Of course.

[cmathews]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Hmmmmmm, upon further review........

2) Of course.

This is actually getting sickening LOL when I was reading Chucks post I could hear the thick Russian accent of Boris and Natasha...then the Canadian Great White North stuff from Doug and Bob....But I must add that Chuck must be a real knob since he didn't end his post with the required aye..... I guess we must all be in the strange brew so soon after St Patty's Day...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by cmathews
[/B]

But I must add that Chuck must be a real knob.

[/B][/QUOTE]Agree.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Did Dudley ever do battle with Boris and Natasha? They were more interested in Moose and Squirrel.

As I recall they were more interested in battling Mooos An Skvwillell than Moose and Squirrel. Of course they sometimes joined forces when they had to, such as during the great worm stampede at the Lazy J Ranch.

Well, gotto go back to work now...

"Yes Fearless Leader! I am comink!"