Disqualification Substitutes ...

[bob jenkins]

Just ask the sub, "Are you coming in for xx?"

The, "Coach, I know you know, but that was 5 on xx" and beckon the sub.

Takes 3 seconds total.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

One thing that I hate about disqualifications ...

Also hate it when the player, coach, and table (but not the official) all realize it's the fifth foul on a player and just treat it like a "normal" substitution, without informing the official that a player has been disqualified.

They don't realize that the official informing the head coach is mandated by rule to inform the head coach.

I've also has a few partners who have allowed this (not informing the head coach) to happen when they know it's the player's fifth foul.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Just ask the sub, "Are you coming in for xx?"

So talk to the substitutes on the X before I inform the coach?

Every single time there are substitutes on the X before I report the foul?

Just on the slight chance the the head coach might give me some attitude?

[bob jenkins]

If you pay almost any attention at all, you will know (a) when the player commits his fifth foul and, (b) whether the sub reports before or after the foul.

A sub almost immediately after the foul is committed is more likely to be for that player.

And, even if a sub is already there, most of the time it's only one.

But, yes, you need to read the situation.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If you pay almost any attention at all, you will know (a) when the player commits his fifth foul ... But, yes, you need to read the situation.

With no cartilage left between my right heel and foot, I'm just working middle school games where we never have player's fouls listed on the scoreboard, we're lucky just to have team fouls displayed.

And yes, we do have to "read the room" and sometimes communication with head coaches requires a certain degree of "finesse".

While I've never done it myself, over the many years, I've had a few partners ask me to inform the coach of the disqualified player when I was not the reporting official.

One thing that I will do in pregame is to tell my partner that if I charge a coach with technical foul, I don't want to be the one to remind him if he forgets to sit down.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

So talk to the substitutes on the X before I inform the coach?



Every single time there are substitutes on the X before I report the foul?



Just on the slight chance the the head coach might give me some attitude?

"Coach, that's 5, is he/she their sub?"

Sent from my SM-S926U using Tapatalk

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

The first thing we need to do is ask Mr. Peabody to use his Wayback Machine to take us back to when the Rules Committee changed the Rules to what is now (2024-25) NFHS R3-S3-A1c:

The Rules Change did not change the fact that a Disqualified Player must be Substituted for immediately. The Rules Committee’s intent has always (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley) been to let A6, A7, and B6 to enter that game at the same time as B7 (Substitute for the Disqualified Player, B5) but has been very cavalier in how it should be done. The protocol has always been based upon the position that other Substitutes Beckoned/TO Requests Granted/FTs Attempted cannot take place until a Substitute for B5 has Reported to the Scorer.

All 2003-04 NFHS Basketball Points of Emphasis 5-H, 2020-21 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations SITUATION 10, and 2024-25 NFHS R3-S3-A1c NOTE (and its Editorial Change) is reminding us is the R3-S3-A1c does not apply to A6, A7, and B6 when we have B7 Substituting for the Disqualified Player, B5.

Therefore: The Game Official first beckons B7 into the Game followed by beckoning A6, A7, and B6 into the Game but the Beckoning is done in one simultaneous action. This allows the Game Officials to be consistent in how Substitutes are brought into the game while making sure that Substitutes Beckoned/TO Requests Granted/FTs Attempted cannot take place until a Substitute for B5 has Reported to the Scorer.

MTD, Sr.

EDIT (Dec. 20/Fri.(02:35pmEST), 2024): The word immediately was a not the most accurate word to use. The Rule that was adopted is to make the HC replace the Disqualified Player in a timely manner and not use the time allotted as an "uncharged" TO.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

The Rules Change did not change the fact that a Disqualified Player must be Substituted for immediately ... but has been very cavalier in how it should be done. The protocol has always been based upon the position that other Substitutes Beckoned/TO Requests Granted/FTs Attempted cannot take place until a Substitute for B5 has Reported to the Scorer.

Immediately?

Use to be 30 seconds, then 20 seconds, and now 15 seconds, but never "immediately".

Agree with "TO Requests Granted" (5-8-3) and "FTs Attempted" (3-1-1).

Disagree with "other Substitutes Beckoned".

In almost all cases (except after the warning horn during a time out, or between multiple free throws (except for new 3-3-1-C-Note)) we can’t deny an eligible (sat a tick, not disqualified, etc.) substitution during a dead ball stopped clock situation, even after a live ball whistle to prevent a substitute from entering when they shouldn't come in.

3-3-1-D: If entry is at any time other than between quarters, and a substitute who is entitled and ready to enter reports to the scorer, the scorer must use a sounding device or game horn, if, or as soon as, the ball is dead and the clock is stopped.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Immediately?

Use to be 30 seconds, then 20 seconds, and now 15 seconds, but never "immediately".[/I]

It was either a state adoption or a "trial rule" for a couple of years -- we used it in IL and had no issues with it (although Ican see someone being too strict on "immediately.")

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I can see someone being too strict on "immediately."

Back in ancient times, when it was 30 seconds, I had a veteran "old school" partner charge a technical foul to the head coach the instant the final disqualification period horn sounded with no replacement at the table. My partner had had it up to his eyeballs with this coach the entire game and was just looking for a reason to T him up.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Immediately?

Use to be 30 seconds, then 20 seconds, and now 15 seconds, but never "immediately".

Agree with "TO Requests Granted" (5-8-3) and "FTs Attempted" (3-1-1).

Disagree with "other Substitutes Beckoned".

In almost all cases (except after the warning horn during a time out, or between multiple free throws (except for new 3-3-1-C-Note)) we can’t deny an eligible (sat a tick, not disqualified, etc.) substitution during a dead ball stopped clock situation, even after a live ball whistle to prevent a substitute from entering when they shouldn't come in.

3-3-1-D: If entry is at any time other than between quarters, and a substitute who is entitled and ready to enter reports to the scorer, the scorer must use a sounding device or game horn, if, or as soon as, the ball is dead and the clock is stopped.

Bill:

See my EDIT of Dec. 20/Fri.(02:35pmEST), 2024.

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

See my EDIT of Dec. 20/Fri.(02:35pmEST), 2024.

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

The word immediately was a not the most accurate word to use. The Rule that was adopted is to make the HC replace the Disqualified Player in a timely manner and not use the time allotted as an "uncharged" TO.

Fully agree.

But I still believe, as IAABO does, that even though it's not a real timeout, the ball is dead and the clock is stopped, and the officials can beckon any substitutes that were (are) at the X before or after the fifth foul was reported and can be beckoned into the game at any time before the disqualified replacement procedure is completed, even if such substitutions are before or between multiple free throws (by new rule 3-3-1-C-Note).

We've may have up to fifteen dead ball stopped clock seconds, letting them all in will not slow down the game.

[BillyMac]

News update from today. It's not NFHS. It may not be for the entire IAABO universe. Possibly just for Connecticut.

Play #4: In the 4th quarter, A2 is called for their 5th personal foul
and is disqualified from the game. B6 and B7 were already at the
table when the foul was called. After the official beckons A6 in to
replace A2, they tell B6 and B7 they must remain at the table until
after the first free throw. Is the official, correct?
Answer: No, the official is not correct. If a disqualified player
needs to be replaced, this is an opportunity for both teams to
substitute and any player may enter the game. (IAABO Rules
Guide 3:3:1 Exception)

[Raymond]

Is there something controversial about that ruling in Connecticut?

Sent from my SM-S926U using Tapatalk

[bob jenkins]

That ruling has never, as far as I know, been in doubt. It's not the same as the test question that has / had you so worked up.