Whistle Dead Ball

[ilyazhito]

If a try is in the air, even if the timeout was recognized, then the whistle is meaningless. The ball will not become dead until the try ends, so possession will be undetermined until the try either scores (possession awarded to the non-scoring team with the right to run the endline) or not (possession awarded based on the AP arrow). Timing here is key.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Rule 5-5-1-G: The ball shall become dead or remain dead when: An official blows the whistle when any floor violation (Rules 9-3 through 9-14) occurs, there is basket interference or goaltending (Rule 9-15) or there is a free-throw violation by the free-thrower’s team (Rule 9-1).

Originally Posted by Raymond

I'm guessing everyone thinks the ball is already dead ...

I did.

6-7-9: The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when: A violation, as in 9-2 through 13, occurs (exception for opponent leaving court for unauthorized reason, or swinging elbows excessively).

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... grant, whistle, and dead ball, all occurring simultaneously.

... not the decision to grant, but the actual granting.

[Rich1]

Almost all of the time the whistle is simply notifying the players to stop playing because the ball is dead, it is not the whistle that makes creates the dead ball. When the violation occurs the ball (not in flight during a try) becomes dead. When the foul occurs the ball (not in flight during a try) becomes dead.

If for some reason your whistle falls out of your mouth or is broken creating a longer than usual delay before you blow the whistle, anything that occurred in the time it took between the violation, foul, time-out request, etc. and the sounding of said whistle would not be allowed to stand (ie. counting a basket after a dribbler steps out of bounds and then makes a basket before the whistle gets blown).

This is why I posed the question - if we accept that the ball is already dead in most instances, what would be the situations where it is the actual blowing of the whistle that causes the dead ball. Most of the time there is not much delay between the act and the whistle so its usually not an issue. But, I do enjoy thinking through these sort of queries to strengthen my knowledge.

And, 5-5-1 and 6-7-9 (and probably a few more) do not seem to match Fundamental #16.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich1

Almost all of the time the whistle is simply notifying the players to stop playing ...

... Whistle also "signals" the timekeeper stop the clock.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich1

5-5-1 and 6-7-9 do not seem to match Fundamental #16.

I don't see any contradiction between 6-7-9 and Basketball Rule Fundamental #16.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Basketball Rule Fundamental #16: The official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead).

Originally Posted by BillyMac

6-7-9: The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when: A violation, as in 9-2 through 13, occurs (exception for opponent leaving court for unauthorized reason, or swinging elbows excessively).

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Rule 5-5

Art. 1. The ball shall become dead or remain dead when:

f. An official blows the whistle and signals when a foul is committed by a shooter’s teammate before the ball is released for a try for goal; and

g. An official blows the whistle when any floor violation (Rules 9-3 through 9-14) occurs, there is basket interference or goaltending (Rule 9-15) or there is a free-throw violation by the free-thrower’s team (Rule 9-1).


I knew the first one. I'm guessing everyone thinks the ball is already dead for the second

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I think that's supposed to be 6-5-1, from NCAAM rules book (NCAAW is the same, but the "f" and "g" might be different.

Note that NCAAW fundamentals do NOT have the "the whistle rarely causes the ball to become dead" clause; NCAAM do not seem to have the fundamentals listed.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I think that's supposed to be 6-5-1, from NCAAM rules book ...

So Raymond's post is an NCAA citation?

My bad, I should realize that the Forum has become more college-centric over the years.

I just figured that my two-year-old NFHS rulebook on my hard drive was outdated and I was too lazy to walk across the house to get my up-to-date print rulebook.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich1

... the referee's whistle causes the ball to become dead.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... sounding one's whistle to grant a requested timeout during a live ball ...

I will continue to dance with the girl that I brung to the high school dance because I'm not granting if the ball has been released on a try, thus no exceptions.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Do I get a prize?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I think that's supposed to be 6-5-1, from NCAAM rules book (NCAAW is the same, but the "f" and "g" might be different.



...

You are correct.

Also from Rule 6.

Section 6. Ball Does Not Become Dead Art. 1. A live ball shall not become dead until the try in flight ends when:
a. An official’s whistle is blown;
b. Time expires for a half or extra period; or
c. A foul occurs.

Art. 2. A live ball shall not become dead when a foul is committed by an opponent of a player who starts a try for goal before a foul occurs, provided that time does not expire before the ball is in flight.

Art. 3. A live ball shall not become dead when the ball is in flight on a try for field goal or during a free throw when an opponent swings an arm(s) or elbow(s) excessively without making contact.

Art. 4. While a free throw is in flight, the ball shall not become dead when:
a. An official blows the whistle; or
b. A foul occurs.


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[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... Whistle also "signals" the timekeeper stop the clock.

That is true in the NBA. In amateur basketball, the raised hand (with a fist if a foul is ruled) is the signal to stop the clock.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

That is true in the NBA. In amateur basketball, the raised hand (with a fist if a foul is ruled) is the signal to stop the clock.

NFHS 5-8: Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, must be stopped when an official: Signals a foul, held ball, violation, timeout.

Rule doesn't state audio or visual signal, implying a level of redundancy.

Also, at one point NCAA did use precision timing, based on sound of the whistle, not the movement of an arm.

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

[I]Rule doesn't state audio or visual signal, implying a level of redundancy.

Maybe not, but the mechanics state that the hand in the air is the stop clock signal. The whistle is more like an attention getting device, not a signal. If that little pea fell out of your whistle you should be able to yell really loudly and put your hand up with similar effect.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich1

If that little pea fell out of your whistle you should be able to yell really loudly and put your hand up with similar effect.

Agree. Of course, the "yell" is also an audio signal.

In the case of a non-functioning whistle (spit it out, dropped it, etc.) the visual signal alone should stop the clock, and if high school ever has a future replay monitor, one should be able to check the time with a visual signal.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich1

... but the mechanics state that the hand in the air is the stop clock signal.

My IAABO signal chart states that, but my IAABO Mechanics Manual states that one should simultaneously sound one's whistle and give a visual signal.

I don't have access to a NFHS Mechanics Manual.