Whistle Dead Ball

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

How about sounding one's whistle to grant a requested timeout during a live ball?

The ball is dead when you recognize the time out not when you blow the whistle. If a coach yells time out and you take a moment to verify its a legitimate request (head coach, correct team, player control) would you award a shot that was launched just before you blew the whistle?

[Rich1]

The two that I think apply here are an inadvertent whistle and an officials time out. Every other situation that I can think of falls the into the :already dead" category.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Rich1

The two that I think apply here are an inadvertent whistle and an officials time out. Every other situation that I can think of falls the into the :already dead" category.

Would an inadvertent whistle cause the ball to be dead if a try is in flight?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Would an inadvertent whistle cause the ball to be dead if a try is in flight?

If the ball went in the basket, I would count it, thus, not dead.

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Would an inadvertent whistle cause the ball to be dead if a try is in flight?

No it would not which is what makes this question so tough. So I guess I would have to alter my answer to "inadvertent whistle unless the ball is in flight"

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich1

The ball is dead when you recognize the time out not when you blow the whistle. If a coach yells time out and you take a moment to verify its a legitimate request (head coach, correct team, player control) would you award a shot that was launched just before you blew the whistle?

Great question Rich1.

In a real game, I (hopefully) wouldn't blow my whistle if the ball had been "released". I always look for the ball after I verify it's a legitimate request.

For a written test question, I'm on the fence, but I'm leaning toward grant, whistle, and dead ball, all occurring simultaneously.

I'm not going to die on this hill, but I would appreciate some further discussion.

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

In a real game, I (hopefully) wouldn't blow my whistle if the ball had been "released". I always look for the ball after I verify it's a legitimate request.

I would not either if I could help it but I have had situations where a time out was clearly called by the coach of the team with the ball and as I am filling my lungs the shot is released. However, it was clear to both myself and the coach that the timeout came before the try started.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... grant, whistle, and dead ball, all occurring simultaneously.

... not the decision to grant, but the actual granting.

[Rich1]

Almost all of the time the whistle is simply notifying the players to stop playing because the ball is dead, it is not the whistle that makes creates the dead ball. When the violation occurs the ball (not in flight during a try) becomes dead. When the foul occurs the ball (not in flight during a try) becomes dead.

If for some reason your whistle falls out of your mouth or is broken creating a longer than usual delay before you blow the whistle, anything that occurred in the time it took between the violation, foul, time-out request, etc. and the sounding of said whistle would not be allowed to stand (ie. counting a basket after a dribbler steps out of bounds and then makes a basket before the whistle gets blown).

This is why I posed the question - if we accept that the ball is already dead in most instances, what would be the situations where it is the actual blowing of the whistle that causes the dead ball. Most of the time there is not much delay between the act and the whistle so its usually not an issue. But, I do enjoy thinking through these sort of queries to strengthen my knowledge.

And, 5-5-1 and 6-7-9 (and probably a few more) do not seem to match Fundamental #16.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich1

Almost all of the time the whistle is simply notifying the players to stop playing ...

... Whistle also "signals" the timekeeper stop the clock.

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... Whistle also "signals" the timekeeper stop the clock.

That is true in the NBA. In amateur basketball, the raised hand (with a fist if a foul is ruled) is the signal to stop the clock.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

That is true in the NBA. In amateur basketball, the raised hand (with a fist if a foul is ruled) is the signal to stop the clock.

NFHS 5-8: Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, must be stopped when an official: Signals a foul, held ball, violation, timeout.

Rule doesn't state audio or visual signal, implying a level of redundancy.

Also, at one point NCAA did use precision timing, based on sound of the whistle, not the movement of an arm.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich1

5-5-1 and 6-7-9 do not seem to match Fundamental #16.

I don't see any contradiction between 6-7-9 and Basketball Rule Fundamental #16.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Basketball Rule Fundamental #16: The official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead).

Originally Posted by BillyMac

6-7-9: The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when: A violation, as in 9-2 through 13, occurs (exception for opponent leaving court for unauthorized reason, or swinging elbows excessively).

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Rich1

The ball is dead when you recognize the time out not when you blow the whistle. If a coach yells time out and you take a moment to verify its a legitimate request (head coach, correct team, player control) would you award a shot that was launched just before you blew the whistle?

6-7 The ball becomes dead when: Art 5... An official's whistle is blown.

Nothing else in there I can see about TOs

If true, the ball becomes dead on the whistle -- not "when you recognize the TO" (with exceptions for try, etc)

[ilyazhito]

If a try is in the air, even if the timeout was recognized, then the whistle is meaningless. The ball will not become dead until the try ends, so possession will be undetermined until the try either scores (possession awarded to the non-scoring team with the right to run the endline) or not (possession awarded based on the AP arrow). Timing here is key.