Michigan State v Purdue

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Not to hijack this thread, but for background information, in ancient times this was a NFHS throwin violation (thrower must release the ball on a pass directly into the court). Ancient casebook plays (written in hieroglyphs) indicated that the ball goes back to non-inbounding team at original throwin spot, no matter who touched the ball out of bounds.

We have some local grizzled high school veteran officials who will still occasionally kick this call.

Not many, most guys (and it was only guys back then) who knew the ancient rule are either retired, or dead.

If I recall correctly, the old rule was out of bounds at the spot where the ball was touched by the non-throwing player, but the NFHS messed up an unannounced editorial change about fifteen years ago that sent the ball back to the original throw-in spot. That ruling only lasted a couple of seasons and then returned to as it was before.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

If I recall correctly, the old rule was out of bounds at the spot where the ball was touched by the non-throwing player, but the NFHS messed up an unannounced editorial change about fifteen years ago that sent the ball back to the original throw-in spot. That ruling only lasted a couple of seasons and then returned to as it was before.

I'm talking about forty years ago. Fifteen years ago is an antique. Forty years ago is ancient.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

...most guys (and it was only guys back then) who knew the ancient rule are either retired, or dead.

[Zoochy]

OK OK OK..... enough of the history of NFHS rules
What is the NCAA-M procedure if the player is OOB when they touch the inbounds pass?
Is this a THROW-IN violation and the ball goes back to the original spot? Or is this a player violation and the Throw-in spot is where the OOB player touched the ball? Or does NCAA-M go to a preassigned location for this type of OOB violation?
After reviewing the play, the 3 college officials went back to the original location.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Zoochy

... enough of the history of NFHS rules ...

Just giving a possible reason for the confusion.

Originally Posted by Zoochy

What is the NCAA-M procedure if the player is OOB when they touch the inbounds pass?

I would also like to know.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Zoochy

OK OK OK..... enough of the history of NFHS rules

What is the NCAA-M procedure if the player is OOB when they touch the inbounds pass?

Is this a THROW-IN violation and the ball goes back to the original spot? Or is this a player violation and the Throw-in spot is where the OOB player touched the ball? Or does NCAA-M go to a preassigned location for this type of OOB violation?

After reviewing the play, the 3 college officials went back to the original location.

The situation described does not fall under any of the articles under Rule 9 Section 4, which is throw-in violations. Therefore, I would have had the throw-in be at the new spot.

I have not found anything directly on-point in either the rulebook or the case book.

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[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Raymond

The situation described does not fall under any of the articles under Rule 9 Section 4, which is throw-in violations. Therefore, I would have had the throw-in be at the new spot.

I have not found anything directly on-point in either the rulebook or the case book.

So the crew probably just didn’t know the correct ruling. This is an uncommon out of bounds violation, so the normal official who doesn’t put a lot of effort into the details of the rules would be apt to make a mistake here.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Zoochy

OK OK OK..... enough of the history of NFHS rules
What is the NCAA-M procedure if the player is OOB when they touch the inbounds pass?
Is this a THROW-IN violation and the ball goes back to the original spot? Or is this a player violation and the Throw-in spot is where the OOB player touched the ball? Or does NCAA-M go to a preassigned location for this type of OOB violation?

One way to help think about this scenario is to imagine if the touch were by either A or B.

If B3 were to touch the throw-in while being OOB, would you give the ball to A or B? Of course, it would be A's ball. Since you're giving the all to team A, that means the violation was on B1. Where did B3 violate? Where B3 touched the ball.

Now, if you were to replace B3 with A3, shouldn't the result be the same....at the spot of the violation? And that would be where A3 touches the ball (while OOB).

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If B3 were to touch the throw-in while being OOB, would you give the ball to A or B?

Back in the 1980's, in a high school game, it would be B's ball back at the original throwin spot, and, of course, Coach A always went bonkers. The "left-over stench" of this old rule is the reason why this situation seems more confusing than it should be. Observed one of our best, very experienced, grizzled officials (outstanding real game knowledge and a great rules guy), after the rule was changed, recently bring the ball back to the original throwin spot (for this very exact situation) in a state tournament quarterfinal game. Thank God he gave the ball to the "right" team, just the wrong spot. Nobody spotted it except me.

I have always stated that for experienced veterans, it's not the rules that are a problem, it's the rule changes that are a problem.

Now what's the new team control foul signal? And how do we now signal a held ball?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I have always stated that for experienced veterans, it's not the rules that are a problem, it's the rule changes that are a problem.

This is my favorite, moving into the lane to rebound a free throw. Got to be a world record for basketball back-and-forth rule changes.

1970-71: Hits.
1981: Releases.
1993: Hits.
1996-97: Releases.
1997-98: Hits.
2014-15: Releases.

Can't remember what we did back in high school (late 1960's)?

Surprisingly, don't know why, it was very easy to adjust to each time it changed.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... moving into the lane to rebound a free throw ... world record for basketball back-and-forth rule changes ... don't know why, it was very easy to adjust to each time it changed.

Maybe because we have dozens of free throws every game?

How frequently do we have a kick during an alternating possession throwin?

I've only had one since the alternating possession arrow was "invented", also coming after the most recent rule change. I called it wrong (based on the old rule) but my rookie partner, fresh from training classes, set me straight.

4.42.5 SITUATION: Team A is awarded an alternating-possession throw-in. A1’s throw-in pass is illegally kicked by B2. RULING: As a result of B2’s kicking violation, Team A is awarded a new throw-in at the designated spot nearest to where the kicking violation (illegal touching) occurred. Since the alternating-possession throw-in had not been contacted legally, the throw-in has not ended and therefore, the arrow remains with Team A for the next alternating-possession throw-in. COMMENT: The kicking violation ends the alternating-possession throw-in and as a result, a non-alternating-possession throw-in is administered. When the ball is legally touched on the subsequent throw-in following the kicking violation, the arrow shall not be changed and shall remain with Team A. (6-4-5)

How frequently do we have a jumper illegally catch the jump ball?

6.4.1 SITUATION C: Following the jump between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, the jump ball: (d) is caught by A1. RULING: In (d), Team B will have a throw-in because of the violation and the arrow for the alternating-possession will be pointed towards Team A’s basket. (4-12-1; 4-28-1)

Just posting these two changed, but rare, rules helps me to remember them. Thanks for playing along. Hope I helped some other grizzled old-timers.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

...

I have always stated that for experienced veterans, it's not the rules that are a problem, it's the rule changes that are a problem...

It doesn't take much effort to keep up with rule changes. Far less reading than reading the entire rule book.



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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

It doesn't take much effort to keep up with rule changes. Far less reading than reading the entire rule book.

Easy to learn, hard to remember in the heat (for me) of the game.

It's more like a "mental block" for me, and I have to concentrate real hard to successfully get through it; changes that should, as for most officials, just "slip off my tongue".

Like a jumper catching a jump ball, or a kick during an alternating possession throwin. I just can't get these changes into a permanent, easily accessible part of my brain, it's always a real struggle (what's the current rule) to concentrate and come up with the correct, current ruling. These are the two "biggies" for me, maybe the only ones. Probably because one could go several seasons in a row without seeing and calling them.

I've had other veterans tell me this, but they don't seem to have this problem to the extreme that I have this problem.