Michigan State vs Purdue

[stiffler3492]

Interesting situation in the second half of this game.

A1 is driving toward the basket. B1 is called for a common foul before the shot. In the continuation of the play, A1's elbow comes up at catches B1 on the chin. The initial call, again, was a non-shooting foul on B1.

The officials go to the monitor to look at the contact after the whistle.

They determine that the elbow-to-chin contact merited further action. Mike Sanzere came over to the broadcast table to explain, and he said they were charging a dead ball contact technical foul on A1.

Team B shot two free throws and got the ball at mid court.

My only concern is with the terminology and the resumption of play. Should this have been called a flagrant 1? The contact that was penalized was completely unintentional (so it seemed to me), and wouldn't B1 get the ball at the POI (94 feet from their basket)?

[Camron Rust]

The first foul made the ball dead since it was not a shot.

The 2nd foul "was" a flagrant 1 but being a dead ball gets turned into a technical foul....and is penalized and resumed as technical foul. If it had been less than a flagrant 1, they would have simply ignored it.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by stiffler3492

Interesting situation in the second half of this game.

A1 is driving toward the basket. B1 is called for a common foul before the shot. In the continuation of the play, A1's elbow comes up at catches B1 on the chin. The initial call, again, was a non-shooting foul on B1.

The officials go to the monitor to look at the contact after the whistle.

They determine that the elbow-to-chin contact merited further action. Mike Sanzere came over to the broadcast table to explain, and he said they were charging a dead ball contact technical foul on A1.

Team B shot two free throws and got the ball at mid court.

My only concern is with the terminology and the resumption of play. Should this have been called a flagrant 1? The contact that was penalized was completely unintentional (so it seemed to me), and wouldn't B1 get the ball at the POI (94 feet from their basket)?

It was during a dead ball, so it's a technical foul for contact. Division line throw-in.

EDIT: Camron beat me to it. Same thing essentially.

[stiffler3492]

NCAA M Rules for reference:

Flagrant Foul: 6. Illegal contact with an elbow that occurs above the shoulders of an
opponent when the elbows are not swung excessively per 4-36.7.a.

Contact dead ball technical foul (from Rule 4): A contact dead ball technical foul
occurs when the ball is dead and involves contact that is unnecessary,
unacceptable and excessive, but does not rise to the level of a flagrant 2
contact technical foul.

The flagrant foul rule says nothing about the ball being live in order to have a flagrant foul, and the technical foul definition calls for contact to be unnecessary, unacceptable, and excessive.

The way I interpret it, the play fits both definitions, so it could have gone either way, but with the ball being dead they went T.

What about the ball location after the fact? The play happened under B's basket, so wouldn't the POI be there instead of being inbounded at center court opposite?

[JetMetFan]

Stiffler -

By definition, a flagrant personal foul is a live-ball foul:

NCAA 4-29-2: Personal foul. A personal foul shall be a foul committed by a player that involves illegal contact with an opponent while the ball is live.

NCAA 4-29-2c: Flagrant 1 personal foul. A flagrant 1 personal foul shall be a personal foul that is deemed excessive in nature and/or unnecessary, but not based solely on the severity of the act.

[stiffler3492]

Ah. Well if I had any editing power to the NCAA rulebook, I'd make sure that the definition of flagrant personal foul includes the live ball provision so I don't have to go chasing all around the book.

[Raymond]

Flagrant PERSONAL foul would by definition be during a live ball. That would be basic knowledge for a college official. And there are flagrant personal and flagrant technical fouls in the NFHS.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by stiffler3492

What about the ball location after the fact? The play happened under B's basket, so wouldn't the POI be there instead of being inbounded at center court opposite?

As I told you before, a technical foul for dead ball contact results in the throw-in from the division line, not POI.

Originally Posted by stiffler3492

Ah. Well if I had any editing power to the NCAA rulebook, I'd make sure that the definition of flagrant personal foul includes the live ball provision so I don't have to go chasing all around the book.

It has nothing to do with the definition of a flagrant foul.

A live ball contact foul is a personal foul.

A dead ball contact foul is a technical foul.

As BNR said, that's Rules 101, basics.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by stiffler3492

Ah. Well if I had any editing power to the NCAA rulebook, I'd make sure that the definition of flagrant personal foul includes the live ball provision so I don't have to go chasing all around the book.

Despite some officials desire to have everything spelled out in every rule, the book would be 500 pages if they wrote it like that....to cover all the compound effects of other rules.

Any rule set is far more powerful and understandable when it is concise and written on principles and concepts rather the enumerating all of the possibilities. The NFHS and NCAA are OK in that regard, not perfect, however. Rules that list everything about everything in every rule just turn into a memorization of an enormously long list of rules that are too many to be memorized. It if far easier to blend 2-3 basic principle to come to the right answer.

[bob jenkins]

Stiffler --

The rule is the same as in HS (with the terminology difference of dead ball conatct T instaed of intentional T).

That should make it easier to understand.

[johnny d]

jetmet, a flagrant 1 foul can only occur while the ball is live. at the ncaa level, flagrant 2 technical fouls can occur while the ball is live or dead depending upon whether it is issued because of noncontact or contact.

[johnny d]

stifler, if they decide that the fouls occurred at the same time, or close enough to be considered part of a double foul, then they would have had a personal foul on b1 and a flagrant foul on a1. in ncaa mens basketball when a double foul occurs and the penalty for each foul is not the same if they were called individually (as is the case here) then the penalty for each foul is penalized. in this case, if a was in the bonus, they would have shot 1 and 1, followed by b getting 2 shots and the ball.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by johnny d

jetmet, a flagrant 1 foul can only occur while the ball is live. at the ncaa level, flagrant 2 technical fouls can occur while the ball is live or dead depending upon whether it is issued because of noncontact or contact.

Thanks. I updated my initial post to say flagrant personal foul. By definition, flagrant personal fouls are live-ball fouls.