IL Test Question

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

A I missed something.
B) Misread the question.
C) Disagree with the apparently official answer.

My answer is C) Disagree with the apparently official answer (The AP arrow is set to team A's basket when the throw-in is completed).

4-3: Alternating-possession control is established and the initial direction of the possession arrow is set toward the opponent’s basket when:
ART. 3 The ball is placed at the disposal of the thrower after:
a. A violation during or following the jump before a player secures control.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Team A violates during the game's opening jump ball.

The AP arrow is set to team A's basket when the ball is placed at team B's disposal for the throw-in.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

And, thus, why I asked -- to see if I missed something, or mis-read the question or if I just disagree with the apparently official answer.

Are you saying "B" has been noted as the correct answer by the test-giving organization?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Are you saying "B" has been noted as the correct answer by the test-giving organization?

Apparently JRutledge has "verified" it. But his wording ("but") seems somewhat ambiguous.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The answer that I have is B. That is what we agreed on tonight at least. I can verify that one, but that is what we had.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Are you saying "B" has been noted as the correct answer by the test-giving organization?

So I've been told. :shrug: -- stuff happens -- a similar question (with the correct answer) was on last year's test. maybe they changed the question and the new question didn't make it to the test along with the new answers, or maybe there were multiple drafts of the answers and an incorrect one got posted...

I'm more interested in learning / teaching the right rule than in assessing the question.

[ilyazhito]

A gets possession based on the free throws. Therefore, the throw-in following the possession is technically not an AP throw-in. This means that whatever happens after A gains possession (via the free throws) is irrelevant. The arrow only comes into play the next time there is a situation involving unclear possession (whether at the start of the next period or sooner, due to a held ball). AP throw-ins are triggered by a disputed possession situation (start of period, held ball, ball stuck in the ring, double foul with no possession, etc.), so if another throw-in is required after the AP throw-in starts (e.g. B kicks the ball on an AP throw-in) or before the AP throw-in (e.g. a player gets a technical foul after possession is awarded, but before the throw-in is administered.), then the subsequent throw-in is not an AP throw-in. I actually had a situation in a JV game where I awarded an AP throw-in, but never administered it, because a player on the team that would have gotten the ball clapped in an opponent's face. I assessed a technical foul to the clapping player, an opponent shot two free throws, and the opponents got the ball. Because the AP throw-in was not administered, the arrow did not change, and the team who "won" the AP throw-in got to throw the ball in at the start of the next quarter.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

A gets possession based on the free throws. Therefore, the throw-in following the possession is technically not an AP throw-in. This means that whatever happens after A gains possession (via the free throws) is irrelevant. The arrow only comes into play the next time there is a situation involving unclear possession (whether at the start of the next period or sooner, due to a held ball). AP throw-ins are triggered by a disputed possession situation (start of period, held ball, ball stuck in the ring, double foul with no possession, etc.), so if another throw-in is required after the AP throw-in starts (e.g. B kicks the ball on an AP throw-in) or before the AP throw-in (e.g. a player gets a technical foul after possession is awarded, but before the throw-in is administered.), then the subsequent throw-in is not an AP throw-in. I actually had a situation in a JV game where I awarded an AP throw-in, but never administered it, because a player on the team that would have gotten the ball clapped in an opponent's face. I assessed a technical foul to the clapping player, an opponent shot two free throws, and the opponents got the ball. Because the AP throw-in was not administered, the arrow did not change, and the team who "won" the AP throw-in got to throw the ball in at the start of the next quarter.

I'm not really following your train of thought based on your original statement.

Bottom-line, the INITIAL setting of the arrow doesn't happen until the ball is ready to be ALIVE (to use an NBA term). We could have a mess of stuff happen before the first throw-in. They don't want the AP arrow INITIALLY set until all the dead-ball scenarios are out of the way.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I'm more interested in learning / teaching the right rule than in assessing the question.

Attended a local IAABO Refresher Exam study group last night. We had about a dozen guys, some of whom are very good "rules guys". We didn't have an answer sheet. We all agreed on about 80% of the answers that we brought to the group. Another 10% we agreed upon after taking deep dives into the rulebook and casebook.

It was that last 10% that was difficult. Despite taking many deep dives into the rulebook and casebook, we still could not agree on some answers, even with the rule or casebook play in front of us.

Why the disagreement? Not because of the wording of the rule or the casebook play, but because of the poor ambiguous wording of the question.

IAABO should hire some retired SAT or ACT question writers to edit the wording of these questions.

Like bob jenkins said, the good news was that we all learned a lot last night.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Bottom-line, the INITIAL setting of the arrow doesn't happen until the ball is ready to be ALIVE (to use an NBA term).

Like when we have a common foul (while in the bonus) between the toss of the jump ball to start an overtime period and before anybody gains control.

We'll have rebounders on the lane and we set the alternating possession arrow when the ball is at the disposal of the free throw shooter.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

A gets possession based on the free throws.

I stopped reading after this -- there are NO FTs in the OP. Giving FTs for A's "violation during a jump ball" opens up a whole new can of worm (BM -- do NOT post some picture related to this).

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

And, thus, why I asked -- to see if I missed something, or mis-read the question or if I just disagree with the apparently official answer.

I am not saying that is ultimately the right answer, but according to the information discussed, that was the answer. I think it is a bad question as many times there are bad questions. Clearly, it appears this is not correct based on what was stated earlier.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

(BM -- do NOT post some picture related to this).

Party pooper.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Are you saying "B" has been noted as the correct answer by the test-giving organization?

If he is not saying that, I am saying that. It was considered to be the right answer at the time of my post.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Apparently JRutledge has "verified" it. But his wording ("but") seems somewhat ambiguous.

It was the right answer according to folks that have taken or were involved in writing the test.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I think it is a bad question as many times there are bad questions.

I actually liked the question, thought that it was well worded, thought provoking, and a good test of what we know.

I did not like that the correct answer was (probably), "None of the above".

Good questions deserve good answers, answers that help us to learn, or to show what we know.

Forty-five years ago, back in college, when I was preparing to become a teacher, we were taught to never have a multiple choice test question with "None of the above" as any answer.

“None of the above,” as either the correct or incorrect response, increases question difficulty without increasing discrimination between high and low-scoring students. If students can identify a likely option, “none of the above” is eliminated, reducing the number of distractors.

[Camron Rust]

The rule here, while not commonly needed, really isn't complicated. As was cited, the arrow is set when the ball is put at the disposal of the thrower and is set to the team not being granted the throwin.

That makes D the correct answer since A and B both set the arrow at the wrong time and C sets it to the wrong team.

The question and answers are very clear and there is no ambiguity that I can see in the question. Whoever declared B as the right answer just got it wrong.