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Old Wed Apr 07, 2021, 05:50pm
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Fun With Held Ball Signals ...

IAABO Make The Call Video

Was this correctly ruled a held ball? Did the officials allow the players enough time to secure possession or was the held ball ruled at the appropriate time? Did the official use the proper signal to indicate a held ball?

https://storage.googleapis.com/refqu...yOBFORbQ%3D%3D

Two choices: The ruling of a held ball is correct. The ruling is incorrect (more time is needed to make a proper judgment)

My comment: The ruling of a held ball is correct. Time has no impact on calling a held ball. A held ball occurs when opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness. Both the Lead and Trail gave an incorrect held ball signal, forgetting to first stop the clock with an open hand.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Apr 08, 2021 at 09:52am.
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Old Wed Apr 07, 2021, 06:58pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
IAABO Make The Call Video

Was this correctly ruled a held ball? Did the officials allow the players enough time to secure possession or was the held ball ruled at the appropriate time? Did the official use the proper signal to indicate a held ball?

Two choices: The ruling of a held ball is correct. The ruling is incorrect (more time is needed to make a proper judgment)

My comment: The ruling of a held ball is correct. Time has no impact on calling a held ball. A held ball occurs when opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness. Both the Lead and Trail gave an incorrect held ball signal, forgetting to first stop the clock with an open hand.
Agree with the held-ball call.

Since there's not a mask in sight, and since both officials signaled "held ball" (#3) without the "stop clock" signal (#2), this video probably predates the signal change that started in the the 2019-20 season.
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Old Wed Apr 07, 2021, 09:23pm
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I'm also OK with a held ball here and I agree with Mike Goodwin that it's possible this clip came before the change that requires a stop clock signal before the held ball signal.
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Old Wed Apr 07, 2021, 10:29pm
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I would add that the Trail official appears to be straightlined on the play. The Trail is lucky to get the play right, but she needs to be more proactive in working the arc to get a good position in this Crew of 2 play.
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Old Thu Apr 08, 2021, 12:59am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
I would add that the Trail official appears to be straightlined on the play. The Trail is lucky to get the play right, but she needs to be more proactive in working the arc to get a good position in this Crew of 2 play.
I would agree that Trail lucked out; Diagram 4-13 in the NFHS Manual shows that this play is only in Lead's PCA and not a dual-coverage area.
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Old Thu Apr 08, 2021, 10:26am
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This Is How We Do It (Montell Jordan, 1995) ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin View Post
Diagram 4-13 in the NFHS Manual shows that this play is only in Lead's PCA and not a dual-coverage area.
From Flickr.

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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Apr 08, 2021 at 10:30am.
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Old Thu Apr 08, 2021, 10:53am
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Evolution ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin View Post
... this play is only in Lead's PCA and not a dual-coverage area.
One thing that I've learned after watching dozens of IAABO Zoom presentations over this past year of lock-down, is that if one doesn't have a competitive matchup in one's primary coverage area, to look beyond for a competitive matchup to help out one's partner.

Seems like, over the past forty years, IAABO has evolved from "Primary? We don't need no stinking primary”; to "Absolutely positively stay in one's primary, no matter what, so help you God"; to "Look for a competitive matchup outside of one's primary if one doesn't have a competitive matchup in one's primary".

The game evolves. Players evolve. Officiating evolves.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Apr 08, 2021 at 11:10am.
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Old Thu Apr 08, 2021, 11:22am
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I have no issues with the signal. I also have no issues with both calling this either.

I would like them to close in on the players and the lead not take his eyes off the play to look at the table.

I also think giving a stop clock signal and then a held ball signal is still rather stupid. If you have ruled something else, then rule that even if it conflicts with your partner, then decide which happened first. Giving the stop clock signal to me and then the held ball signal just looks indecisive. But then again I do not make the rules. Have yet to hear anyone say anything to me when I did not give the stop clock signal. Tried to not do it that way, but very hard at this point in my career.

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Old Thu Apr 08, 2021, 11:56am
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Stop Clock Signal and Then Held Ball Signal ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Tried to not do it that way, but very hard at this point in my career.
Took me a full season before I finally got it, even then, I occasionally make a mistake.

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Old Thu Apr 08, 2021, 02:30pm
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I like the move to stopping the clock first, especially while stepping to the play. Something the NBA had been doing and I always thought it looked sharper.

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Old Thu Apr 08, 2021, 02:44pm
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Avoid Conflicting Signals ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
I like the move to stopping the clock first, especially while stepping to the play. Something the NBA had been doing and I always thought it looked sharper.
With a double whistle, gives me some time to take a peek at my partner, possibly make eye contact, and to possibly avoid conflicting signals. Coaches may appear to be knuckleheads, but some of them are good a spotting conflicting signals, something I would prefer to avoid if possible. In most cases, I can explain why with a coach, but if I don't have to, that's a plus for me.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Apr 08, 2021 at 02:48pm.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 09, 2021, 02:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
IAABO Make The Call Video

Was this correctly ruled a held ball? Did the officials allow the players enough time to secure possession or was the held ball ruled at the appropriate time? Did the official use the proper signal to indicate a held ball?

https://storage.googleapis.com/refqu...yOBFORbQ%3D%3D

Two choices: The ruling of a held ball is correct. The ruling is incorrect (more time is needed to make a proper judgment)

My comment: The ruling of a held ball is correct. Time has no impact on calling a held ball. A held ball occurs when opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness. Both the Lead and Trail gave an incorrect held ball signal, forgetting to first stop the clock with an open hand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
From Flickr.


I) Timing of Held Ball Call:

A) The timing of the Held Ball Call was good. Far too often, Game Officials will call a Held Ball too (with emphasis on "too") soon, especially in girls' (Jr. H.S. and H.S.) games with the excuse being they want to prevent rough play, which is a crock of horse manure.


II) Two-Step Held Ball Signal:

A) I am not in favor of the Two-Step Held Ball Signal which the NFHS adopted two years ago.

1) The only reason for the Two-Step Held Ball Signal is to allow a Game Official who has initially started to signal a Foul to change his/her her decision to a Held Ball in mid-stream (And I know from personal experience, ).


III) When the NFHS made the signaling change many veteran officials found it difficult to break the habit of using the old signal, Mark, Jr. will attest to that personally, .


IV) Free Throw and Rebounding Coverage:

A) Two-Person Crew Mechanics in General:

1) Two-Person Mechanics is really Three-Person Mechanics which is really, depending upon where the Ball is, consists of two different court coverage:

a) A Lead and a Center and no Trail.

b) A Lead and a Trail and no Center.

B) Free Throw Coverage in a Two-Person Crew:

1) Can be accurately described as a L and a C with no T.

C) Trail:

1) Personally, I would have liked to seen the T standing just above the FT Line Extended instead of 3ft above the Top of the Key Extended.

2) The T never closed down toward the End Line at least one step as W13 released her FTA. Instead, the T never moved from her spot on the Court. Not good.

3) Rebound After Unsuccessful Free Throw Attempt:
a) The long rebound was first contested in what is described as the "gray area" along the FT Line Extended on the Strong Side of the Court.

i) This "gray area" can result in double coverage by the L and the T.

b) The T should be the Game Official that has On Ball Coverage on the long rebound in this Play.

i) And as such should have been taking at least one step of not two steps toward the Ball.

D) Lead:

1) The L was approximately three feet off of the End Line which is good if he was three feet off of the FT Lane Extended (which is where he should have been) instead of the six feet off of the FT Lane Extended.

2) The L followed Ball out to the FT Line Extended on the Strong Side instead of watching the four Players (2 White and 2 Red) in the FT Lane directly in front of him.

E) Lead and Trail:

1) Ironically, once the Ball was contested by 1 Red (R1) Player and 2 White Players (W1 and W2) along the FT Line Extended the L was in position to see the Ball between R1 and W1 and W2, while the T's view of the Ball between R1 and W1 and W2 was blocked by W1 and W2, BUT I would bet that the L's view was blocked by R2.

2) The L started to signal a Held Ball before the T did, but not by much.

a) The L had the best view of the Ball between R1 and W1 and W2 making him the Primary Official responsible for On Ball Coverage. Therefore, the Held Ball became the L's call, and he should have moved along the End Line to get a better view of the Ball.

b) And because the T did not have a see-through of the Ball the T should have not have been signaling a Held Ball because she could not see the Ball.

c) The L's Held Ball Signal was a very lazy signal while the T's Held Ball Signal was more visible; both the L and the T should have been moving toward the Players involved in the Held Ball but neither did.

d) The T, because she was Opposite the Table looked to the Table to see the Direction of the AP Arrow and then visually signaled the direction of the AP Arrow: Correct mechanic.

e) The L, because he was Table Side should not have been looking at the Table to see the Direction of the AP Arrow because the T was already doing that and signaling the Direction of the AP Arrow.

3) The L's Held Ball Signal was at 0:01 of the 2nd QT.

a) There was no sound with the video and the Game Clock had gone to 0:00 we do not know if the Game Officials put 0:01 on the Game Clock or ended the 2nd QT with the Held Ball, meaning that White would start the 3rd QT with an AP Throw-in.


MTD, Sr.
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Old Fri Apr 09, 2021, 03:57pm
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Conflicting Signals ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
The only reason for the Two-Step Held Ball Signal is to allow a Game Official who has initially started to signal a Foul to change his/her her decision to a Held Ball in mid-stream
Old system we could have a double whistle with three possible conflicting signals to be displayed, held ball signal (thumbs); violation, or timeout (open hand); or a foul (fist).

New method double whistle only two possible conflicting preliminary signals, open hand (for a violation, timeout, or a held ball) and a fist (foul), before the final signal is given.

New method gives us more time (fractions of a second) between only two conflicting preliminary signals and the actual final signal, possibly time to take a peek at a partner, possibly make eye contact, and possibly (using our top secret, non-verbal, body language, extra sensory perception, mind meld, officiating communication technique) avoiding a conflicting final signal.
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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Apr 10, 2021 at 11:23am.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 09, 2021, 10:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Old system we could have a double whistle with three possible conflicting signals to be displayed, held ball signal (thumbs); violation, or timeout (open hand); or a foul (fist).

New method double whistle only two possible conflicting preliminary signals, open hand (for a violation, timeout, or a held ball) and a fist (foul), before the final signal is given.

New method gives us more time (fractions of a second) between only two conflicting preliminary signals and the actual final signal, possibly time to take a peek at a partner, possibly make eye contact, and possibly (using our top secret, non-verbal, body language, extra sensory perception, officiating communication technique) avoiding a conflicting final signal.

Billy:

Have you never started to go up with your "fist" because, in your judgement, you had a Foul only to realize you have a Held Ball?

MTD, Sr.
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Old Sat Apr 10, 2021, 11:14am
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Awkward, Uncomfortable, And Flustered ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
Have you never started to go up with your "fist" because, in your judgement, you had a Foul only to realize you have a Held Ball?
95% of the time, when I want to stop the clock (fist, or hand) I use my left hand.

And 95% of the time, I'm counting (five seconds, ten seconds) with my right hand.

For me, it's my perfect comfort zone for these signals.

Only exception is when I change counts (five seconds to ten seconds on backcourt inbound; five second closely guarded holding to five second closely guarded dribbling, and vice versa) and change hands (as IAABO mechanics require) when I may end up counting with my left hand.

If a foul, or a violation, occurs during this awkward and uncomfortable (for me) left hand counting, I may use my right hand to stop the clock, leading to another awkward and uncomfortable moment for me, occasionally getting me flustered enough to give an incorrect stop the clock signal (fist instead of hand, or vice versa), most often on a "surprise" (often hand behind head player control) foul.

Oddly, I'm fairly ambidextrous when it come to me chopping in time.

As a child, knowing that it wasn't a left hander's world, I believe that my parents encouraged me to using my right hand. I write (poorly), bat, and eat with my right hand; and throw, and brush my teeth, with my left hand.

My wife and I did the same thing with one of my daughters, which is why she ended up being only a four tool softball player, couldn't throw to save her life, forever relegated to left field, or second base. She became an expert at hitting the cutoff man, her "best friend" in the game. Some good news, softball coach found it very easy to add switch slap hitter/drag bunter to her repertoire.

All four of my grandsons are left handed, or show left handed tendencies. I tell my kids to just leave them alone. Buy them left handed scissors, and left handed spiral notebooks.
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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Apr 11, 2021 at 12:03pm.
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