held ball

coachgrd · #1 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 20, 2005, 01:18pm

This is a strange occurrance but I'll try to explain it the best way possible...

Last night in our varsity game, one of our girls went airborn for a shot. Before she released the ball, a defender put her hand on the ball and there was what appeared to be a held ball. However, before our shooter came back down with the ball, she passed the ball. This all happened very quickly. The official called it a jump ball. One of our other assistants thinks it shouldn't have been a held ball b/c she passed the ball b/f returning to the floor. Who was correct?

Once again, be gentle...

coachgrd

TriggerMN · #2 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 20, 2005, 01:20pm

Your assistant is correct. There is no call until A1 returns to the floor. If B1 gets a hand on the ball, and still has hand on ball when A1 returns to floor, jump ball. If A1 gets hand on ball, but takes hand off ball before A1 returns to floor, traveling.

Smitty · #3 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 20, 2005, 01:26pm

Quote:

Originally posted by TriggerMN
Your assistant is correct. There is no call until A1 returns to the floor. If B1 gets a hand on the ball, and still has hand on ball when A1 returns to floor, jump ball. If A1 gets hand on ball, but takes hand off ball before A1 returns to floor, traveling.

Really? I don't think returning to the floor has anything to do with it. If it looks like a shot and the shooter can't get the shot off because a defender has their hand on the ball, I have a jump ball. If she chooses to pass after the fact, I still have the same call. Am I wrong?

BktBallRef · #4 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 20, 2005, 01:27pm

No, that's not true, Trigger.

4-25
A held ball occurs when:
An opponent places his/her hand(s) on the ball and prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try.

4.25.2 SITUATION: A1 jumps to try for goal or to pass the ball. B1 leaps or reaches and is able to put his/her hands on the ball and keep A1 from releasing it. A1: (a) returns to the floor with the ball; or (b) is unable to control the ball and it drops to the floor.

RULING: A held ball results immediately in (a) and (b) when airborne A1 is prevented from releasing the ball to pass or try for goal.

Did B1 prevent the ball from being released for a try? Yes. Held ball. Whether she returns to the floor with the ball, releases it or passes it, a held ball has occurred as B1 prevented the release of the shot.

bob jenkins · #5 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 20, 2005, 01:28pm

Quote:

Originally posted by TriggerMN
Your assistant is correct. There is no call until A1 returns to the floor.

4.25.2 "A held ball results immediately ..."

tjones1 · #6 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 20, 2005, 01:28pm

Quote:

Originally posted by TriggerMN
Your assistant is correct. There is no call until A1 returns to the floor. If B1 gets a hand on the ball, and still has hand on ball when A1 returns to floor, jump ball. If A1 gets hand on ball, but takes hand off ball before A1 returns to floor, traveling.

I disagree.
4-25-2
An opponent places his/her hand(s) on the ball and prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try.----Held ball.

tjones1 · #7 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 20, 2005, 01:30pm

BktBallRef:

Do you have the rules book & case book on your computer or can you just type really really really fast!

Just wondering, cause I'd like a copy if you do. Thanks

Junker · #8 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 20, 2005, 01:31pm

I will jump in without books, lets see how I do. The try is not over until the airborne shooter returns to the floor. This gives the player in the specified situation time to pull the ball back and pass it off without the ball becoming a held ball. It sounds like the official should have been a little more patient with the whistle.

Smitty · #9 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 20, 2005, 01:32pm

Slight variation.

I had a girl driving the lane, picks up her dribble and holds the ball down by her hip as she begins her steps to start a layup. She is not airborne, but has started her shooting motion. A defender reaches and gets a hand on the ball, but it is not a case where I would call a normal jump ball. But the shooter loses her rhythm and ends up taking an extra step while she tries to regrip the ball, while the defender's hand is still on the ball, but not holding the ball. I called a travel. Wasn't a popular call. Did I get it right?

I just realized I used the term "reaches" in my example. May the referee gods forgive me...

[Edited by Smitty on Jan 20th, 2005 at 01:35 PM]

Junker · #10 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 20, 2005, 01:36pm

In the play described, the player got the pass off before returning to the floor. Under 4-25-2 listed, the ruling specifies that it is a held ball if the player is prevented from completing the pass or try. In this case, the pass was completed. The pass was able to be thrown, how is it a held ball?

Smitty · #11 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 20, 2005, 01:38pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Junker
In the play described, the player got the pass off before returning to the floor. Under 4-25-2 listed, the ruling specifies that it is a held ball if the player is prevented from completing the pass or try. In this case, the pass was completed. The pass was able to be thrown, how is it a held ball?

But the original post said the girl was attempting a try first, then passed after the held ball. The held ball on the try occurred before the pass attempt.

SamIAm · #12 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 20, 2005, 01:42pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Smitty

Quote:

Originally posted by TriggerMN
Your assistant is correct. There is no call until A1 returns to the floor. If B1 gets a hand on the ball, and still has hand on ball when A1 returns to floor, jump ball. If A1 gets hand on ball, but takes hand off ball before A1 returns to floor, traveling.

Really? I don't think returning to the floor has anything to do with it. If it looks like a shot and the shooter can't get the shot off because a defender has their hand on the ball, I have a jump ball. If she chooses to pass after the fact, I still have the same call. Am I wrong?

I think you don't have an immediate jump ball. If the player released the ball voluntarily, play on, unless they retain possesion. If they voluntarily release and keep possesion without a subsequest touch by another player, travel.

Jurassic Referee · #13 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 20, 2005, 02:17pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Smitty

Quote:

Originally posted by Junker
In the play described, the player got the pass off before returning to the floor. Under 4-25-2 listed, the ruling specifies that it is a held ball if the player is prevented from completing the pass or try. In this case, the pass was completed. The pass was able to be thrown, how is it a held ball?

But the original post said the girl was attempting a try first, then passed after the held ball. The held ball on the try occurred before the pass attempt.

You can only have a held ball if the player is prevented from passing or shooting. Iow, you have to prevent both. How could you possibly say a pass was prevented when the player actually did pass the ball?

BktBallRef · #14 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 20, 2005, 02:31pm

Quote:

Originally posted by tjones1
BktBallRef:

Do you have the rules book & case book on your computer or can you just type really really really fast! Just wondering, cause I'd like a copy if you do. Thanks

Athletic Rules Study has the Rule Book, Case Book and S&I Book on the CD in Windows Help file format.

BktBallRef · #15 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 20, 2005, 02:35pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Junker
In the play described, the player got the pass off before returning to the floor. Under 4-25-2 listed, the ruling specifies that it is a held ball if the player is prevented from completing the pass or try. In this case, the pass was completed. The pass was able to be thrown, how is it a held ball?

Because, as 4.25.2 states, "A held ball results immediately..." As soon as the shot is prevented from being released, the held ball occurs. It makes no difference what happend after that.