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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 22, 2021, 03:51am
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2020-21 NCAA Men's Casebook

A.R. 127. In a game without a courtside monitor available, and with the score
tied near the expiration of time in the second half:
1. Shooter A1 is fouled in the act of shooting, but time expires before the
release of the ball and the try is successful;

RULING 1: When the official determines that the foul occurred before
the sounding of the game-clock horn, and signals for the clock to stop
and the timer fails to stop the clock, a timing mistake occurred and
the official shall put time back on the clock to when the official has
definitive knowledge
as to the time on the clock when the foul was
called. The goal shall count. In this case, A1 is awarded one free throw.
However, when the official does not have definitive knowledge as to the
time on the game clock when the foul was called
and the timer does
not stop the clock, this is not a timers mistake and time should not be
placed back on the game clock
. When the official determines that the
foul occurred before the sounding of the game-clock horn, the basket
shall not count and A1 is awarded two free throws. A1 shall shoot both
free throws even if the first is successful. When both free throws are
unsuccessful, the game continues with an extra period(s).

On a foul that occurs near the expiration of time, officials must
determine that the clock did not stop when the whistle sounded
either because a timing mistake occurred or because it was so near the
expiration of time that the timer is unable to stop the clock.
In the first
case, time is put back on the game clock and the game has not ended.
In the second case, time is not placed back on the clock and the game
has ended. When both free throws are unsuccessful, the game continues
with an extra period(s).
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 22, 2021, 07:56am
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NCAAW is at least approximately the same (I don't have time to look it up and paste it).

In practice, many supervisors / assigners etc want the default to be the first part of the case and put some time back.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 22, 2021, 08:07am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
You deflected, so Ill simplify. What you suggest is wholly unsupported by NFHS rules, cases, and annual interpretations.
How can you have a foul that clearly took place before the horn sounded and not put time on the clock? How? So if you have a foul that clearly happened before the horn, you must time on the clock logically. They got rid of the lag time provision some time ago. I do not care what the NF says directly about a situation the NF hardly ever addresses like many situations. So you are going to have a foul that clearly you called before the horn and you are going to say, "Nope, time ran out." Because you have to determine if the other action would not have continued during what is basically a dead ball and if you have other actions that have to be applied. That is not deflecting, that is actually what people believe, even if you put .1 on the clock. If you have the foul after time runs out, then you have to decide if that action was legal or not based on if you have a dead ball or not or if the action can be ignored because it was not flagrant or intentional on some level.

Some of yall are so married to a book that does not tell you everything to do in multiple situations and then you want to state what should be done with a situation that might have been addressed 20 years ago and never spoken of before. Where I live, it is largely accepted to put time on the clock if we know we called a foul before the clock ran out.

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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 22, 2021, 08:17am
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Definitive knowledge is fine. And good officials are awesome at glancing at the board upon whistle (especially in the closing minute/seconds). And Im sure many officials who dont have definitive knowledge in those moments lie and pretend they do, all under the guise of this mentality that has trickled down from college assigners that it is taboo to shoot FTs with the lane cleared on a foul at the buzzer.

I am not one of those officials. I strive to have definitive knowledge, but if I dont, under NFHS, Im following the appropriate NFHS case play that is very much alive and well in the case book (Ill look it up after work).


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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 22, 2021, 08:34am
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Let's Go To The Videotape ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
I strive to have definitive knowledge, but if I don’t, under NFHS, I’m following the appropriate NFHS case play that is very much alive and well in the case book.
5-10-1: The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock.

2008-09 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
Situation 6: Team A is trailing by three points when A2 attempts a three-point try at the end of the game. A2 releases the try and is fouled in the act of shooting. The whistle for the foul is followed immediately by the horn sounding and the clock at 0:00. The try is unsuccessful. Ruling: The officials are permitted to put time back on the game clock if there is definite knowledge of the correct time or information relative to the time that elapsed after the whistle blew and before the final horn sounded. If time is put back on the game clock, A2 will attempt three free throws with the lane spaces occupied. If the officials cannot determine the amount of time remaining or determine that there is no time remaining, A2 will attempt three free throws with the lane spaces cleared. (5-10-1; 8-1-3)
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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Feb 22, 2021 at 01:17pm.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 22, 2021, 08:35am
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Definite Knowledge ...

5.10.1 Situation A: The score is tied with two seconds remaining in the game. A1 is awarded a bonus free throw. After the ball had been placed at the disposal of A1, B1 disconcerts A1. The free-throw attempt is missed. The timer does not hear the official's whistle sound and permits the clock to start. May the referee put the two seconds back on the clock? Ruling: Yes. The rules provide "…the referee may correct the mistake when he/she has definite information relative to time involved." The referee not only orders the timer to put two seconds back on the clock but also awards A1 a substitute throw for the disconcertion by B1.

5.10.1 Situation D: There are six seconds left on the clock in the fourth quarter and the ball is out of bounds in the possession of Team A. The throw-in by A1 touches the official on the court and then goes across the court and out of bounds. The timer permits two seconds to run off the clock. What recourse does the coach of either team have in such situation? Ruling: Either coach may step to the scorer’s table and request a 60-second time-out and have the referee come to the table. The coach is permitted to do this under provisions of the coach’s rule. The referee shall come to the sideline and confer with one or both coaches and the timer about the matter; and if the referee has definite knowledge that there were six seconds on the clock when the ball was awarded to Team A for the throw-in, it is the responsibility of the referee to have the two seconds put back on the clock. The timer and scorer and the other official(s) can be used by the -referee to gain definite information. If there is no mistake or if it cannot be rectified, the requesting team will be charged with a 60-second time-out. (5-11-4 Exception b; 5-8-4; 10-5-1c)

5.10.2 Situation: Following a violation in the fourth quarter, there are five seconds on the clock as A1 is bounced the ball for a throw-in. The throw-in is completed to A2. The official properly signals the clock to start and immediately begins a closely-guarded count on A2. The official reaches a count of three seconds when B1 fouls A2. The official stops play properly and reports the foul at the table. The timer reports that he/she did not start the clock when the throw-in was touched by A2. The clock still shows five seconds. Ruling: The referee will order the clock set at two seconds. The referee has definite knowledge of the amount of time involved in this situation by using the closely-guarded count.

Revised 1997 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations Situation #12: The clock indicates one minute, 10 seconds left in the fourth quarter, when Team A makes a throw-in following a charged time-out. Team A then commits a 10- second backcourt violation, but the clock shows only eight seconds of the remaining playing time elapsed. The timekeeper indicates the clock was started when the throw-in pass was touched on the court.Ruling: Violation. Team B’s ball out of bounds for a throw-in at the nearest spot. The referee is authorized to make a correction in timekeeping “only when he or she has definite information relative to the time involved” and if the referee is certain there has been an obvious mistake. In the situation described, the referee would not be able to determine whether a mistake in starting the clock has been made. There is no provision for the correction of an error made in the referee’s accuracy


Only interpretation (one specific situation: clock was erroneously turned on) of time adjustment allowed with no definite knowledge:

Basketball Rules Interpretations 2009-10 Situation 11: Team B scores a goal to take the lead by one point. A1 immediately requests and is granted a timeout with three seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. Following the time-out, Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in from anywhere along the end line. A1 passes the ball to A2, who is also outside the boundary; A2 passes the ball to A1 who is inbounds and running the length of the court. The timer mistakenly starts the clock when A2 touches A1’s pass while standing outside the boundary. An official notices the clock starting on A2’s touch (a), before A2 releases the throw-in pass to A1, (b), while A2’s throw-in pass is in flight to A1, or (c), as soon as A1 catches the throw-in pass. Ruling: This is an obvious timing mistake and may be corrected. In (a) and (b), the official shall blow the whistle, stop play and direct the timer to put three seconds on the game clock. Since the throw-in had not ended, play is resumed with a Team A throw-in from anywhere along the end line. In (c), the official may put the correct time on the clock, but must make some allowance for the touching by A1 – likely 10ths of a second, if displayed. The ball is put in play nearest to where it was located when the stoppage occurred to correct the timing mistake. A “do over” is not permitted in (c), since the throw-in had ended. (4-36; 5-10-1)
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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Feb 22, 2021 at 11:32am.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 22, 2021, 11:32am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
Definitive knowledge is fine. And good officials are awesome at glancing at the board upon whistle (especially in the closing minute/seconds). And Im sure many officials who dont have definitive knowledge in those moments lie and pretend they do, all under the guise of this mentality that has trickled down from college assigners that it is taboo to shoot FTs with the lane cleared on a foul at the buzzer.

I am not one of those officials. I strive to have definitive knowledge, but if I dont, under NFHS, Im following the appropriate NFHS case play that is very much alive and well in the case book (Ill look it up after work).
I do not think definite knowledge is a very specific or defined thing. It is general. If you know your whistle came before the horn, that is definite knowledge. Even when you look at a clock your eye only is going to catch a moment and not the actual time something took place. Unless we have replay, we are still going to have to take some kind of "guess" as to when something took place. Even replay situations have flaws which is why the NCAA has had to standardize the usage of replay for specific situations.

So again not sure what I said was against what the NF said other than they use these general terms that often are never defined. If you know the call took place before the horn, you know that you have to put something on the clock. Will you be 100 percent accurate? Nope. But you will know it should not be 0:00 on the clock. And we can give the best estimate as well as to what that is and that is better than just saying, "Well I did not see the clock so I have no idea." That is why as a crew you get together and discuss information to make a decision.

I have been doing this for 25 years now. I did not just come up with my standard overnight and never change. Many conversations about situations that have never happen to me or are so rare that when things happen I have a starting point. If you want to only go buy the NF stated position, that is fine, but remembers there are things the NF has addressed or other training materials have addressed with these situations. Just like when we talk about contact above the shoulders, the NF has published (through NASO) a standard of what to do and then never mentioned it again in their rulebooks or interpretations. This to me is the same way and if I know something took place before the horn, I am putting time on the clock even if that is .1 just for some standard. Just like if I know the clock did not move after the ball properly touched, I will make a reasonable deduction that some time had to come off the clock even if it is .3. So until the NF defines what "definite knowledge" is and when it does nor does not apply, then I will use some level of common sense to draw some conclusions. Again not asking for agreement, just saying what I will do and others will do. The NCAA just addresses issues more and has a system in place to figure out the best solution. So the circle back I wasn't stating something that was related to any level, but I do not officiate differently in principle at any level. I do the same basic things if there are gray areas or not stated or not even defined. Take the advice for what it is worth and do what you feel is best. At the end of the day, we do not work for the same people and I am sure we would have different conversations with our supervisors or assignors based on what they feel is best. I will say this again, "I DO NOT WORK FOR THE NATIONAL FEDERATION AT ANY GAME." I do not care what some guy out west says to do in a situation in my backyard.

Peace
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 22, 2021, 11:37am
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Exact Time Observed By The Official ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I do not think definite knowledge is a very specific or defined thing.
Think again:

5-10-1: The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock.

Note that it doesn't say "exact time", it says "exact time observed by the official". Not the same thing.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 22, 2021, 12:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Think again:

5-10-1: The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock.

Note that it doesn't say "exact time", it says "exact time observed by the official". Not the same thing.
So you think that if you blow the whistle comes clearly before the horn, we are not know with certainly what time should have been on the clock at the very time of the whistle? You do that. Good luck with that logic. But the National Federation said it, so we must throw out all other logic and leave the clock where it is. Gotcha. Sorry, not doing that. We work 3 Person here too for all varsity games for the most part.

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Old Mon Feb 22, 2021, 12:04pm
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Hundredths Of A Second Remaining In The Period ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
... you know that you have to put something on the clock ...
Keep in mind that not all situations of 0:00:00 with no horn (or light) are timekeeper clock errors, or timekeeper human reaction time delays in stopping the clock.

In the case of old fashioned mechanical clocks (assumed working properly), the scoreboard clock can read 0:00 (or maybe 0:00:00) with no horn (or light that officially ends the period). It's not an error, or time lag, there are actually fractions of a second remaining in the period that (in many old fashioned consoles) nobody can see. Should one add time the clock? I say absolutely not.

In the case of the more modern digital clocks (assumed working properly), the scoreboard clock can read 0:00:00 with no horn (or light that officially ends the period). It's not an error, or time lag, there's actually hundredths of a second remaining in the period that can possibly (or not) be seen only in the table console. Should one add time the clock? I say absolutely not.

But even in situations of clock errors, or timekeeper human reaction time delays in stopping the clock, the official must have definite knowledge to adjust the time. Definite knowledge can be observing the clock (with the help of a partner, or the table crew), or using a visible, or invisible count (ten seconds, five seconds, three seconds), or using a mental count as many good officials will do in the final seconds of periods.

But short of those three examples of definite knowledge (with one very specific interpretation exception), an official can never guess.
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Old Mon Feb 22, 2021, 12:16pm
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Nothing To Do With Logic, It's By Rule And Interpretation ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
So you think that if you blow the whistle comes clearly before the horn, we are not know with certainly what time should have been on the clock at the very time of the whistle?
By both rule and interpretation officials can't, unless an official observes the clock (possibly with the help of a partner, or the table crew), or an official uses a visible, or invisible count (ten seconds, five seconds, three seconds), or an official uses a mental count (as many good officials will do in the final seconds of periods).
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 22, 2021, 12:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Keep in mind that not all situations of 0:00:00 with no horn (or light) are timekeeper clock errors, or timekeeper human reaction time delays in stopping the clock.

In the case of old fashioned mechanical clocks (assumed working properly), the scoreboard clock can read 0:00 (or maybe 0:00:00) with no horn (or light that officially ends the period). It's not an error, or time lag, there are actually fractions of a second remaining in the period that (in many old fashioned consoles) nobody can see. Should one add time the clock? I say absolutely not.

In the case of the more modern digital clocks (assumed working properly), the scoreboard clock can read 0:00:00 with no horn (or light that officially ends the period). It's not an error, or time lag, there's actually hundredths of a second remaining in the period that can possibly (or not) be seen only in the table console. Should one add time the clock? I say absolutely not.

But even in situations of clock errors, or timekeeper human reaction time delays in stopping the clock, the official must have definite knowledge to adjust the time. Definite knowledge can be observing the clock (with the help of a partner, or the table crew), or using a visible, or invisible count (ten seconds, five seconds, three seconds), or using a mental count as many good officials will do in the final seconds of periods.

But short of those three examples of definite knowledge (with one very specific exception), an official can never guess.
I am not talking about old clocks. Most clocks have tenths of a second and I cannot think of the last time I did a game without that on the clock. And unless I or the crew does not recognize an error, we are not going to assume there is such an error. So again if we have to determine the horn did not sound before the whistle (this is not hard guys) then if you do not get a peek at the clock. But I also tend to not be totally unaware of the clock in most situations, because that is discussed in pre-game and someone has some idea of the clock situation. Even in a situation where I have the last-second shot, I have some idea of where that clock is. Not seeing anything you are saying that is so different than what I am saying. I just said I am not going to assume there was some mistake if clearly we called a foul and the whistle was blown before the clock ran out.

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Old Mon Feb 22, 2021, 12:33pm
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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
By both rule and interpretation officials can't, unless an official observes the clock (possibly with the help of a partner, or the table crew), or an official uses a visible, or invisible count (ten seconds, five seconds, three seconds), or an official uses a mental count (as many good officials will do in the final seconds of periods).
I am not asking a bias home table to give me information about a clock situation in that way. They might tell me something, but I am not making a final decision based on their information.

Again to me, you are making this harder than it needs to be. Been in enough situation to know what to talk about and to think about what I need to do to help the crew. All you are focusing on is some words in an interpretation and not the actual application of the situation being discussed here.

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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 22, 2021, 12:38pm
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Wink And A Nod ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
"Well I did not see the clock so I have no idea." That is why as a crew you get together and discuss information to make a decision.
As we all know, real game situations are not the same as written exam questions (or answers athletic directors and coaches want after a problem that went against them that they believe of be contrary to rules, they all have referee buddies to go to for rule citations).

It's one thing to admit that one doesn't have definite knowledge and to guess and put time on the clock. It's not correct by rule. It's not correct by interpretation. It's wrong. It can come back to bite one in the butt.

It's something else to make an educated estimate without admitting there was no definite knowledge. "Coach, I spotted 0:00.02 on the clock as I sounded my whistle" (even though you didn't). Cheating? Many may see it as good game management, and it could be considered to be fair if one is certain that there was an error, or delay. If one can sleep at night after doing that, I can certainly commiserate with that.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 22, 2021, 12:44pm
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Eyes On The Clock ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
But I also tend to not be totally unaware of the clock in most situations, because that is discussed in pre-game and someone has some idea of the clock situation. Even in a situation where I have the last-second shot, I have some idea of where that clock is.
Other Forum members may disagree with me, but I would not call that guessing, I would call that definite knowledge.

But with no eyes on the clock (nor any visible, or mental, counts), that would be guessing, and guessing is not allowed by rule.

5-10-1: The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock.

5-10-2: If the referee determines that the clock malfunctioned or was not started/stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an official’s count or other official information may be used to make a correction.
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