Free throw

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

As we all know, real game situations are not the same as written exam questions (or answers athletic directors and coaches want after a problem that went against them that they believe of be contrary to rules, they all have referee buddies to go to for rule citations).

It's one thing to admit that one doesn't have definite knowledge and to guess and put time on the clock. It's not correct by rule. It's not correct by interpretation. It's wrong. It can come back to bite one in the butt.

It's something else to make an educated guess without admitting there was no definite knowledge. "Coach, I spotted 0:00.02 on the clock as I sounded my whistle" (even though you didn't). Cheating? Many may see it as good game management, and it could be considered to be fair if one is certain that there was an error, or delay. If one can sleep at night after doing that, I can certainly commiserate with that.

The human brain and eye can only process certain things accurately when it comes to a clock with tenths of a second and even the light if we have one on the court or in plain view. So again I get that you would get hung up on the word definite, but if I called a foul before the horn or light, that is definite knowledge that some time would be put back on the clock. Again that could be .3 seconds, but not sure I have to know anymore than that fact. Because you said that it is OK to use a mental count, but that does not mean everyone counts that accurately either. So we are basically guessing. There are officials that do not even count the same just by looking at their visual counts, so now we are to use those things and assume that no other method applies. Just silly to me, but again I do not have to prove anything in this conversation, just stating a way to come to a reasonable conclusion.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Because you said that it is OK to use a mental count, but that does not mean everyone counts that accurately either. So we are basically guessing. There are officials that do not even count the same just by looking at their visual counts ...

You, and the rest of us, are covered by interpretation.

Revised 1997 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations Situation #12: ...There is no provision for the correction of an error made in the referee’s accuracy.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

So we are basically guessing.

Of course we are (if we choose to do so), just don't answer that on a written exam, or use the word "guess" within hearing distance of an upset coach, or irate athletic director. They may later discover that the NFHS doesn't allow us (with one specific interpretation exception) to guess and it can come back to bite us in the butt.

“Never miss a good chance to shut up.” (Will Rogers)
"The things I did not say never hurt me." (Calvin Coolidge)

"Coach, I spotted 0:00.02 on the clock as I sounded my whistle" (BillyMac)

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Of course we are (if we choose to do so), just don't answer that on a written exam, or use the word "guess" within hearing distance of an upset coach, or irate athletic director. They may later discover that the NFHS doesn't allow us (with one specific interpretation exception) to guess and it can come back to bite us in the butt.

“Never miss a good chance to shut up.” (Will Rogers)
"The things I did not say never hurt me." (Calvin Coolidge)

"Coach, I spotted 0:00.02 on the clock as I sounded my whistle" (BillyMac)

I do not work in a state that asks those silly NF questions. I am not talking about passing a test, I am talking about what is reality. Again that book can get you guys in trouble trying to use it without consideration of the real world. Yeah, you ask them table people and see if they give you honest and real answers. At least that would be suspect here.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Again that book can get you guys in trouble trying to use it without consideration of the real world.

It's a double edged sword, cutting both ways. The rulebook can hurt us, but it can also help us.

My point is that if in an end of game, close score, situation, if an official admits to "guessing" within earshot of losing coaches or athletic directors, those coaches and directors will find out from one of their official buddies (they all have them) that "guessing' was not by the book (lots of rule, casebook, and interpretations to support that the official screwed up), which can come back to bite the official in the butt if the issue is bumped up the ladder to an assigner, or the state association.

Rather than admitting to "guessing", I'm saying to just say, "Coach, I spotted 0:00.02 on the clock as I sounded my whistle" (be firm, sell it, all good officials watch the clock in the last seconds of a period), after making your best judgment estimate in your mind, and then the actual rule can't hurt you.

[JRutledge]

I am simply talking about this situation. Not talking about every situation. I am not asking table people for information to decide the game without any conversation with my partners. That is not happening. You can do that, but I will not do that in this kind of situation.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am not asking table people for information to decide the game without any conversation with my partners.

My hierarchy: Me first. Not sure? My partner second. Still not sure? Table officials (timekeeper, official scorekeeper, and visiting scorekeeper). Referee decides on credibility of table officials. Still not sure? Referee makes final decision, which may be based on:

2-13-4: If table officials disagree, the goal must count and/or the foul must be penalized, unless the referee has knowledge which alters such ruling.

2-5-5: The referee must: Decide matters upon which the scorer and timer disagree and correct obvious timing errors.

[ilyazhito]

Check your local listings. For varsity games, at least in some associations, the clock operator is also an official. If that is the case, the crew can consult with him (her) the same as with each other. If any doubt still remains, the goal will count and/or the foul will be penalized, unless there is definite information that alters the ruling. With reference to the OP, if the clock operator/official knows that time remains, he will consult with the referee and put time back on the clock (if the game clock does not use 10ths, 1 second, if it does, then whatever time he (and the calling official) had when the whistle was blown or foul signaled, whichever happened first).

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

My hierarchy: Me first. Not sure? My partner second. Still not sure? Table officials (timekeeper, official scorekeeper, and visiting scorekeeper). Referee decides on credibility of table officials. Still not sure? Referee makes final decision, which may be based on:

2-13-4: If table officials disagree, the goal must count and/or the foul must be penalized, unless the referee has knowledge which alters such ruling.

2-5-5: The referee must: Decide matters upon which the scorer and timer disagree and correct obvious timing errors.

Sounds wonderful on paper, but again I am not having the table people make a decision of the clock. If we have to do that, then we are not doing the right thing. They are clearly the last result and I stand by that position. I think the crew needs to know what is going on with the clock and make the proper decisions. Just the way I roll. Anyone here can default to anything they wish.

Peace