Free throw

[bbman]

Situation:
Time running out in game, player shots & scores but gets fouled in the process. Game clock shows 00:00, but horn has not sounded. Score now 50-50.
My question:
Would players line up in blocks for the free throw or not?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by bbman

Situation:
Time running out in game, player shots & scores but gets fouled in the process. Game clock shows 00:00, but horn has not sounded. Score now 50-50.
My question:
Would players line up in blocks for the free throw or not?

Assuming the horn is not broken, and that "auto horn" is on, then there's still some time left. Line up the players.

[JRutledge]

If the foul takes place before time expires, put time on the clock and put people on the line. If the foul takes place after the horn, then I guess you will not have anyone on the line (shot gone and foul before the shooter comes back to the floor). But in general, the foul when the time expires should have time put on the clock.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

But in general, the foul when the time expires should have time put on the clock.

Citation please?

Official simultaneously sees a foul, sounds whistle, and observes a definite 0:00 on the clock, but no horn (the automatic horn was later found to be turned on (see above procedure)). No other definite knowledge regarding time, other than 0:00 on the clock, from anybody, partner, or table (nobody got a peek at 0:01 for example). With no definite knowledge, what rule allows one to put time back on he clock to shoot free throws in a high school game when there may be fractions of a second remaining in the game?

Note: The only interpenetration that allows time adjustments with no definite knowledge is about a clock that was erroneously turned on. There was no error involved in this play.

Basketball Rules Interpretations 2009-10 Situation 11: Team B scores a goal to take the lead by one point. A1 immediately requests and is granted a timeout with three seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. Following the time-out, Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in from anywhere along the end line. A1 passes the ball to A2, who is also outside the boundary; A2 passes the ball to A1 who is inbounds and running the length of the court. The timer mistakenly starts the clock when A2 touches A1’s pass while standing outside the boundary. An official notices the clock starting on A2’s touch (a), before A2 releases the throw-in pass to A1, (b), while A2’s throw-in pass is in flight to A1, or (c), as soon as A1 catches the throw-in pass. Ruling: This is an obvious timing mistake and may be corrected. In (a) and (b), the official shall blow the whistle, stop play and direct the timer to put three seconds on the game clock. Since the throw-in had not ended, play is resumed with a Team A throw-in from anywhere along the end line. In (c), the official may put the correct time on the clock, but must make some allowance for the touching by A1 – likely 10ths of a second, if displayed. The ball is put in play nearest to where it was located when the stoppage occurred to correct the timing mistake. A “do over” is not permitted in (c), since the throw-in had ended. (4-36; 5-10-1)

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If the foul takes place before time expires, put time on the clock and put people on the line....in general, the foul when the time expires should have time put on the clock.

JRut, love your work, but please specify when you’re talking about NCAA rules and case philosophy to a crowd mostly composed of NFHS officials. There is no case or rule support in the NFHS domain for what you suggest.


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[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

JRut, love your work, but please specify when you’re talking about NCAA rules and case philosophy to a crowd mostly composed of NFHS officials. There is no case or rule support in the NFHS domain for what you suggest.


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I was not speaking about rules differences or philosophies. If a shooter is fouled in the act of shooting you do not simply ignore that action. I did not say a word about NCAA BTW. We have people here talking about organizations that are not NF either, but for some reason that is OK. So if the majority of officials are in the NF domain, they can review what levels they are familiar with. No where does it say we only discuss one level of basketball here.

Peace

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If the foul takes place before time expires, put time on the clock and put people on the line...in general, the foul when the time expires should have time put on the clock.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I was not speaking about rules differences or philosophies. If a shooter is fouled in the act of shooting you do not simply ignore that action. I did not say a word about NCAA BTW. We have people here talking about organizations that are not NF either, but for some reason that is OK. So if the majority of officials are in the NF domain, they can review what levels they are familiar with. No where does it say we only discuss one level of basketball here.

You deflected, so I’ll simplify. What you suggest is wholly unsupported by NFHS rules, cases, and annual interpretations.


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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bbman

Time running out in game, player shots & scores but gets fouled in the process. Game clock shows 00:00, but horn has not sounded. Score now 50-50. Would players line up in blocks for the free throw or not?

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Assuming the horn is not broken, and that "auto horn" is on, then there's still some time left. Line up the players.

I can't believe that there are any of these antique scoreboards still in service. I'm old enough to actually know, and to have actually used, the proper procedure in these situations with antique scoreboards.

Ask to scoreboard operator to turn on the automatic horn. If it sounds, it was turned off, time has already expired, and shoot the free throw with no rebounders.

If the horn doesn't sound when the scoreboard operator turns on the automatic horn, it was always turned on (and still is), time has not expired, and shoot the free throw with rebounders, keeping mind that there's less than 0.3 second remaining, so only a tap in would count on a rebound by the offense (only with clock that shows tenths of a second), and since the clock doesn't start until a legal touch, there is still plenty of time for live ball, stopped clock foul during rebounding action on missed shot, so don't you and your partner fall asleep figuring that game will be over with a made free throw and tied going into overtime with a missed free throw.

[JRutledge]

Just do not know when to quit.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Ask to scoreboard operator to turn on the automatic horn. If it sounds, it was turned off, time has already expired, and shoot the free throw with no rebounders.

I don't think that works. If the switch is off, the horn won't sound even if the auto horn is on.

Just check the setting -- somewhere there's an indication of whether the auto horn is on. And, even when the scoreboard does not show 1/10s many consoles do (the .3 sec rule does not apply even if the console shows this amount -- it's the scoreboard that matters here)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I don't think that works. If the switch is off, the horn won't sound even if the auto horn is on.

Maybe so, but it worked for me with the old fashioned mechanical clock scoreboards (not showing tenths of a second), the ones where we could actually hear the click, click, click, as the different lights went on and off as the clock wound down,

Probably not the same as as the newfangled, fancy, modern, digital, wireless scoreboards with tenths of a second on the scoreboard, and hundredths of a seconds on the console.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

And, even when the scoreboard does not show 1/10s many consoles do (the .3 sec rule does not apply even if the console shows this amount -- it's the scoreboard that matters here)

Good point. Good reminder. Thanks.

[crosscountry55]

It seems like we have this discussion every couple of seasons and we always overthink the crap out of it.

Vehemently disagree with any notion of putting time back on the clock. There is no rule support for this.

Definitely check the console and its settings. Many consoles even show hundredths of seconds, and the three times this has happened to me, sure enough there was something like 0.0 on the board but 0.07 on the console. That is time that still remains! So line ‘em up.


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[crosscountry55]

Definitive knowledge is fine. And good officials are awesome at glancing at the board upon whistle (especially in the closing minute/seconds). And I’m sure many officials who don’t have definitive knowledge in those moments lie and pretend they do, all under the guise of this mentality that has trickled down from college assigners that it is taboo to shoot FTs with the lane cleared on a foul at the buzzer.

I am not one of those officials. I strive to have definitive knowledge, but if I don’t, under NFHS, I’m following the appropriate NFHS case play that is very much alive and well in the case book (I’ll look it up after work).


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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

I strive to have definitive knowledge, but if I don’t, under NFHS, I’m following the appropriate NFHS case play that is very much alive and well in the case book.

5-10-1: The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock.

2008-09 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
Situation 6: Team A is trailing by three points when A2 attempts a three-point try at the end of the game. A2 releases the try and is fouled in the act of shooting. The whistle for the foul is followed immediately by the horn sounding and the clock at 0:00. The try is unsuccessful. Ruling: The officials are permitted to put time back on the game clock if there is definite knowledge of the correct time or information relative to the time that elapsed after the whistle blew and before the final horn sounded. If time is put back on the game clock, A2 will attempt three free throws with the lane spaces occupied. If the officials cannot determine the amount of time remaining or determine that there is no time remaining, A2 will attempt three free throws with the lane spaces cleared. (5-10-1; 8-1-3)