Fumble on throw in and free throw

[billyu2]

9.2.1B After receiving the ball for a throw-in A1 fumbles the ball and leaves the designated spot to retrieve the ball. Violation Question #1: Immediately after fumbling the ball A1 requests and is granted a timeout. Is this correct? (ball was still OOB and A1 did not leave 3' space.) Question #2: A1 has the ball for a free throw and bounces it off his foot into the lane as in 9.1.1 and immediately requests a timeout. Request is denied and a violation is called. Is this correct?

[maven]

#1: No
#2: Yes

5-8-3a, dictating when a team may request a timeout:

The ball is in control or at the disposal of a player of his/her team.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by maven

#1: No
#2: Yes

5-8-3a, dictating when a team may request a timeout:

The ball is in control or at the disposal of a player of his/her team.

Agree with #2 but #1 has me confused. If the player fumbles the ball on the throw in wouldn't the 5 second count just continue until reaching the limit or until the player violates by leaving the 3' space? Probably over-thinking this but I don't believe the fumble is a violation, the player stays in the 3' area, so wouldn't the count continue meaning a timeout could be granted? Appreciate your help on this.

[maven]

Originally Posted by billyu2

Probably over-thinking this but I don't believe the fumble is a violation, the player stays in the 3' area, so wouldn't the count continue meaning a timeout could be granted? Appreciate your help on this.

Having a count continuing is not a requirement for being able to request a TO. Having the ball at one's disposal is. No TO may be granted here.

Remember: the count is not a "possession" count, but rather 5 seconds to release the ball inbounds. Hard to do that without the ball, but since fumbling it away doesn't count as releasing the ball inbounds, you keep counting.

You're correct, if the thrower has possession and then loses the ball, to enforce by the book you must wait for something else to happen. That shouldn't be granting a TO request, however.

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by billyu2

Agree with #2 but #1 has me confused. If the player fumbles the ball on the throw in wouldn't the 5 second count just continue until reaching the limit or until the player violates by leaving the 3' space? Probably over-thinking this but I don't believe the fumble is a violation, the player stays in the 3' area, so wouldn't the count continue meaning a timeout could be granted? Appreciate your help on this.

Correct, the fumble does not constitute a violation. If the ball remains out of bounds after the fumble, it is still at the player's disposal (the throw-in has not ended) and a timeout should be allowed.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by PG_Ref

Correct, the fumble does not constitute a violation. If the ball remains out of bounds after the fumble, it is still at the player's disposal (the throw-in has not ended) and a timeout should be allowed.

1) We know when disposal starts, but I don't think we know when it ends.
2) If the team can request a TO here, why not during the same situation during a FT? I think the rule (ruling) should be consistent.

[Rob1968]

Originally Posted by PG_Ref

Correct, the fumble does not constitute a violation. If the ball remains out of bounds after the fumble, it is still at the player's disposal (the throw-in has not ended) and a timeout should be allowed.

Perhaps it is a violation for not throwing the ball directly onto the court, the same as if he/she threw a bounce pass towards a teammate, but the ball bounced on the floor, out of bounds.

[PG_Ref]

[QUOTE=bob jenkins;872643]1) We know when disposal starts, but I don't think we know when it ends.
2) If the team can request a TO here, why not during the same situation during a FT? I think the rule (ruling) should be consistent.[/QUOTE]

I would say using the same reasoning for allowing a time out when the official places the ball on the floor for the ROP procedure. A team is not even required to have a player out of bounds and they are still entitled to a timeout. In the free throw case, the caseplay specifically says that one is a violation.

5.8.3 SITUATION D:

A1 or A2 requests a time-out: (a) while airborne A1 is holding the ball; (b) while A1's throw-in is in flight toward A2; or (c) when the ball is on the floor at A1's disposal for a throw-in.

RULING: The request is granted in (a) and (c), but denied in (b), as there is no player control while the ball is loose between players.

I would say that after the fumble, the ball is still at A1's disposal.

[maven]

A ball on the floor that a player can legally get to, retrieve, and complete a throw-in, is at his disposal. This would apply to both the RPP and the throw-in after a made basket.

A ball on the floor rolling away from a throw-in spot that the player cannot legally leave to retrieve it is NOT at that player's disposal. There's no way for that player legally to complete the throw-in. To insist that the ball is 'at his disposal' is an abuse of language.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

1) We know when disposal starts, but I don't think we know when it ends.
2) If the team can request a TO here, why not during the same situation during a FT? I think the rule (ruling) should be consistent.

I'm looking at 4-42-3 and 4 and it would seem that if the throw-in count starts when the ball is at or put at the disposal of a team and ends when the ball is released on a pass directly into the court then both disposal and count would continue during the fumble thereby allowing the timeout as PG suggested. And I agree with you in (2).