rule question

[thumpferee]

I have a pass 4-31

Once he touched it again, he travelled.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by thumpferee

I have a pass 4-31.

Nice citation.

A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or
rolls the ball to another player.

As the Devil's advocate, I must ask, who is the other player? He seems to be rolling, or batting, the ball to himself, away from the other players.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by bucky

Case: The ball rolls near A1. A1 begins pushing the ball, with one hand, along the floor all over the court and finally picks the ball up. A1 then begins dribbling. Ruling? Does it matter if the ball was pushed with two hands?
Ruling: Double dribble. Two hands? On the initial roll, no. Subsequent touches, yes.

Case: A1 is dribbling ball and then picks up his dribble. A1 then places the ball on the floor and ceases to have contact with the ball. A1 then picks up the ball.
Ruling? Double dribble. If holding the ball, A1 can legally touch the ball to the floor.


Case: A1 is dribbling ball and then picks up his dribble. A1 then places the ball on the floor and ceases to have contact with the ball. A1 then pushes the ball along the floor for 10 feet and then A2 picks the ball up.

Ruling? Violation. A1 has released the ball to the floor a second time. If he is the first to touch the ball it would be a double dribble.

Case: A1 is dribbling ball and then picks up his dribble. A1 then places the ball on the floor and ceases to have contact with the ball. A1 then pushes the ball along the floor for 10 feet. A1 picks up the ball.

Ruling? Same as previous case. A1 is the first to touch.

Technically, in the rule definition "pushes the ball to the floor" it doesn't say the ball has to bounce, that's just the way we are accustomed to seeing it. Whether the player in control of the ball pushes (bounces) throws, drops (not fumbles), places or rolls the ball; the fact is, the ball has intentionally gone from the player's hand(s) to the floor. Prior to dribbling, if A1 sets the ball on the floor, adjusts his waist band, picks up the ball and dribbles he has violated. If, instead of picking up the ball, he smacks the ball causing it to start bouncing and continues to dribble he has not violated. If A1 has used his dribble and is now trapped, he cannot roll the ball between the legs of the opponent, run around the trap and be the first to touch the ball just as he cannot throw the ball over the opponents to the floor and be the first to touch the ball.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by bucky

A1 dribbles and then holds the ball, establishing his right foot as the pivot foot. A1 then places the ball on the floor with his right hand never losing contact with the ball. A1 then pushes the ball in a controlled fashion, along the floor

for ten feet, taking several full steps, and then picks up the ball. This would be legal based on this thread and everyone's opinion about the rules. This would also be a case whereby a pivot foot could be moved from one spot on the floor to another and there is no traveling violation. Now, once A1 picks up the ball, could A1 pivot on his left foot? Ruling?

Legal. A1 is permitted to touch the ball to the floor if he is holding the ball.

Illegal. A1 is no longer holding the ball. He has released (pushed) the ball to the floor a second time and is the first to touch it. Violation. The rest is irrelevant IMO.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by billyu2

Technically, in the rule definition "pushes the ball to the floor" it doesn't say the ball has to bounce, that's just the way we are accustomed to seeing it. Whether the player in control of the ball pushes (bounces) throws, drops (not fumbles), places or rolls the ball; the fact is, the ball has intentionally gone from the player's hand(s) to the floor. Prior to dribbling, if A1 sets the ball on the floor, adjusts his waist band, picks up the ball and dribbles he has violated.

As the Devil's advocate, I most point out that the casebook clearly says otherwise:

4.15 COMMENT: It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble. A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions. It is a dribble when a player stands still and bounces the ball. It is not a dribble when a player stands still and holds the ball and touches it to the floor once or more than once.

[so cal lurker]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Because they've already said the opposite :

4.15 COMMENT: It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble. A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions. It is a dribble when a player stands still and bounces the ball. It is not a dribble when a player stands still and holds the ball and touches it to the floor once or more than once.

Uh, yeah. That was my point. Changing that would make things a lot more simple.

(but your quote is not accurate, as it involves the player still holding the ball rather than releasing it; the best example of why putting the ball on the ground is not a dribble is that it is a travel to put it down and then stand up and pick it up--if putting it down was a dribble, that play would not be a travel)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

... but your quote is not accurate, as it involves the player still holding the ball rather than releasing it ...

Nice catch.

So we're back to this:

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control. A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or request a time-out. Once A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)

[bucky]

I may have to create a new thread or just let this go. Too many are interpreting my case incorrectly. Some are suggesting the ball is released and others are referring to cases that do not apply.

Case: A1 dribbles and then holds the ball, establishing his right foot as the pivot foot. A1 then places the ball on the floor with his right hand never losing contact with the ball. A1 then pushes/scoots/moves/displaces the ball in a controlled fashion, along the floor for ten feet, taking several full steps, and then picks up the ball. In this process, A1 was not dribbling. This would be legal based on this thread and everyone's opinion about the rules. This would also be a case whereby a pivot foot could be moved from one spot on the floor to another and there is no traveling violation.

Now, once A1 picks up the ball, could A1 pivot on his left foot? Ruling?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bucky

I may have to create a new thread or just let this go. Too many are interpreting my case incorrectly. Some are suggesting the ball is released and others are referring to cases that do not apply.

Case: A1 dribbles and then holds the ball, establishing his right foot as the pivot foot. A1 then places the ball on the floor with his right hand never losing contact with the ball. A1 then pushes/scoots/moves/displaces the ball in a controlled fashion, along the floor for ten feet, taking several full steps, and then picks up the ball. In this process, A1 was not dribbling. This would be legal based on this thread and everyone's opinion about the rules. This would also be a case whereby a pivot foot could be moved from one spot on the floor to another and there is no traveling violation.

Now, once A1 picks up the ball, could A1 pivot on his left foot? Ruling?

I deem that A1 is still holding the ball in your play since he never releases it. Therefore, when his pivot foot comes up and back down, he has traveled.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bucky

I may have to create a new thread or just let this go. Too many are interpreting my case incorrectly. Some are suggesting the ball is released and others are referring to cases that do not apply.

Case: A1 dribbles and then holds the ball, establishing his right foot as the pivot foot. A1 then places the ball on the floor with his right hand never losing contact with the ball. A1 then pushes/scoots/moves/displaces the ball in a controlled fashion, along the floor for ten feet, taking several full steps, and then picks up the ball. In this process, A1 was not dribbling. This would be legal based on this thread and everyone's opinion about the rules. This would also be a case whereby a pivot foot could be moved from one spot on the floor to another and there is no traveling violation.

Now, once A1 picks up the ball, could A1 pivot on his left foot? Ruling?

Since not every possible situation is covered in the rule and case books, I'm applying the spirit of the rule which is illustrated in Billy's case play 4.45.5 Sit B. In your play the player lifted and re-planted his pivot foot while still in possession of the ball. To me your play is no different in theory and application than a player tossing the ball up in the air (not a try/not a fumble) and taking steps with both feet and catching the ball in a new spot.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

To me your play is no different in theory and application than a player tossing the ball up in the air (not a try/not a fumble) and taking steps with both feet and catching the ball in a new spot.

Nice example.

This involves a fumble (muff):

4.44 SITUATION A: A1 attempts to catch the ball while running rapidly. A1 muffs the ball, but succeeds in securing it before it strikes the floor. A1 then begins a dribble, taking several steps between the time the ball was first touched until it was caught. RULING: There has been no violation provided A1, after catching the ball, released the ball to start the dribble before the pivot foot was lifted from the floor. (4-15)

This doesn't involve a fumble:

4.44.3 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. RULING: Traveling violation since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is illegal. (9-4)

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Since not every possible situation is covered in the rule and case books, I'm applying the spirit of the rule which is illustrated in Billy's case play 4.45.5 Sit B. In your play the player lifted and re-planted his pivot foot while still in possession of the ball. To me your play is no different in theory and application than a player tossing the ball up in the air (not a try/not a fumble) and taking steps with both feet and catching the ball in a new spot.

Which is an illegal dribble.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by stewcall

Team A in the back court rolls the ball in bounds. Player A2 bats the ball forward 4-5 times--- Clock starts at the first bat ball. The question for me is are the bat balls legal or illegal?

The forum consensus seems to be that the bats are legal and do not constitute dribbles. I agree with that conclusion.

So now. . . when does the 10-second backcourt count start?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by stewcall

Team A in the back court rolls the ball in bounds. Player A2 bats the ball forward 4-5 times

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

The forum consensus seems to be that the bats are legal and do not constitute dribbles. I agree with that conclusion. So now. . . when does the 10-second backcourt count start?

Start the ten second count when the offense controls (not just touches) the ball (holding or dribbling).

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by bucky

I may have to create a new thread or just let this go. Too many are interpreting my case incorrectly. Some are suggesting the ball is released and others are referring to cases that do not apply.

Case: A1 dribbles and then holds the ball, establishing his right foot as the pivot foot. A1 then places the ball on the floor with his right hand never losing contact with the ball. A1 then pushes/scoots/moves/displaces the ball in a controlled fashion, along the floor for ten feet, taking several full steps, and then picks up the ball. In this process, A1 was not dribbling. This would be legal based on this thread and everyone's opinion about the rules. This would also be a case whereby a pivot foot could be moved from one spot on the floor to another and there is no traveling violation.

Now, once A1 picks up the ball, could A1 pivot on his left foot? Ruling?

Bucky, people are not necessarily interpreting the situation incorrectly. Your description doesn't make sense. Even though A1 doesn't lose contact with the ball, once A1 starts pushing/scooting/moving/displacing the ball in a controlled fashion, he is either still holding the ball or he isn't. It can't be both. If he is still holding the ball while taking steps, it is a travel. Since you said he eventually picked up the ball, then the ball had to have been "released" even though he never lost contact. Again, it can't be both. If the ball is not being held, then it has been released. Releasing (by pushing) the ball to the floor (which A1 did) fits the definition of a dribble. Since A1 dribbled prior, IMO A1 has double dribbled.