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Old Sun Jan 05, 2020, 12:47pm
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rule question

Team A in the back court rolls the ball in bounds. Player A2 bats the ball forward 4-5 times--- Clock starts at the first bat ball. The question for me is are the bat balls legal or illegal? Our interpreter said he thought it was illegal, but would seek further clarification. If it is illegal? what is the call...
Is it a dribble?
Interested in what folks think
stew in Va
thanks in advance
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Old Sun Jan 05, 2020, 12:49pm
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A dribble involves pushing or batting the ball to the floor.

If the ball is rolling on the floor, batting it does not meet the definition of a dribble.
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Old Sun Jan 05, 2020, 12:50pm
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Im just trying to picture this in my mind to see if any of the actions as described appear to be illegal. I dont see anything that would prevent that. Play on.


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Old Sun Jan 05, 2020, 02:09pm
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Case: The ball rolls near A1. A1 begins pushing the ball, with one hand, along the floor all over the court and finally picks the ball up. A1 then begins dribbling. Ruling? Does it matter if the ball was pushed with two hands?

Case: A1 is dribbling ball and then picks up his dribble. A1 then places the ball on the floor and ceases to have contact with the ball. A1 then picks up the ball. Ruling?

Case: A1 is dribbling ball and then picks up his dribble. A1 then places the ball on the floor and ceases to have contact with the ball. A1 then pushes the ball along the floor for 10 feet and then A2 picks the ball up. Ruling?

Case: A1 is dribbling ball and then picks up his dribble. A1 then places the ball on the floor and ceases to have contact with the ball. A1 then pushes the ball along the floor for 10 feet. A1 picks up the ball. Ruling?
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Old Sun Jan 05, 2020, 02:28pm
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It Can Happen ...

I had something similar happen to me in a Catholic middle school game fifteen years ago (remember it like it was yesterday). "Ball handler" was batting the ball around on the floor (I can't remember if it was after his dribble had ended) and seemed to gain an advantage in a crowd of opponents, so I sounded my whistle and ruled a travel (or maybe an illegal dribble).

I discussed this with my partner after the game and she convinced me that I was incorrect in my ruling (should have been no call). I spent a long time in the rulebook and casebook (and may have brought it to the Forum) and decided that she was correct, there was no violation.

If you can fumble the ball around trying to catch pass and move several feet without a violation, why can't one do the same with a ball on the floor?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Jan 05, 2020 at 02:31pm.
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Old Sun Jan 05, 2020, 02:36pm
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I'd say you're stepped into an area not covered in the rules.

It partially meets the concept of dribbling, but it doesn't quite meet the literal definition...so does that make it an illegal dribble???

If it is a controlled action, I'm going to invoke 2-3 and treat it like a dribble. It is close enough in purpose and principle.
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Old Sun Jan 05, 2020, 02:59pm
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You've Stepped Into The Twilight Zone ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I'd say you're stepped into an area not covered in the rules. If it is a controlled action, I'm going to invoke 2-3 and treat it like a dribble.
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

But are you sure it's a duck?

It looks just like a dribble, but a dribble in only two dimensions, just left and right, forward and back, no up and down.

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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Jan 06, 2020 at 11:34am.
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Old Sun Jan 05, 2020, 08:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
If you can fumble the ball around trying to catch pass and move several feet without a violation, why can't one do the same with a ball on the floor?
I reckon you can if it is indeed a fumble, but one can easily push the ball along the floor in a controlled fashion. At least in these cases, the action mentioned was meant to be a controlled manner of pushing the ball.

Seems like a no call however, theoretically, one could easily gain an advantage by such actions.
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Old Sun Jan 05, 2020, 09:27pm
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Player control is defined as holding or dribbling the ball.
This action is neither of those. Therefore, we do not have a player in control of the ball. This player may bat the ball along the floor as much as desired. It is up to an opponent to come put a stop to it.

All this constitutes is a player batting a loose ball.
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Old Mon Jan 06, 2020, 12:22am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Player control is defined as holding or dribbling the ball.
This action is neither of those. Therefore, we do not have a player in control of the ball. This player may bat the ball along the floor as much as desired. It is up to an opponent to come put a stop to it.

All this constitutes is a player batting a loose ball.
Not quite. I would not use the word "batting" but rather pushing. Indeed, it may not fit the definition of player control via holding/dribbling, however the player is indeed completely in control of the ball. Perhaps we are not envisioning the same action but the way I meant to describe it, the player is controlling the ball by pushing it along the floor. Now, this is certainly nothing that any of use will experience. If it were to happen, obviously the defense would immediately put a stop to it. Also, by pushing the ball along the floor and guiding it directly, this is not a loose ball as far as application, maybe by definition, but not actual action. The player is controlling the ball.

I am anxious to try it the next time I play some pick-up ball. The debate/argument that ensues will surely be great entertainment.
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Old Mon Jan 06, 2020, 11:03am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I'd say you're stepped into an area not covered in the rules.

It partially meets the concept of dribbling, but it doesn't quite meet the literal definition...so does that make it an illegal dribble???

If it is a controlled action, I'm going to invoke 2-3 and treat it like a dribble. It is close enough in purpose and principle.
This seems to answer my question--- for me it's either a dribble or nothing--- If it is a dribble-- Then Player grabs the ball with 2 hands and then dribbles we have a double dribble--- YIKES---I think I'll go with a no call
thanks all
stew in VA
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Old Mon Jan 06, 2020, 11:13am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
Not quite. I would not use the word "batting" but rather pushing. Indeed, it may not fit the definition of player control via holding/dribbling, however the player is indeed completely in control of the ball. Perhaps we are not envisioning the same action but the way I meant to describe it, the player is controlling the ball by pushing it along the floor. Now, this is certainly nothing that any of use will experience. If it were to happen, obviously the defense would immediately put a stop to it. Also, by pushing the ball along the floor and guiding it directly, this is not a loose ball as far as application, maybe by definition, but not actual action. The player is controlling the ball.

I am anxious to try it the next time I play some pick-up ball. The debate/argument that ensues will surely be great entertainment.
Your definition of player control is not the rules book definition. That is why you are having difficulty with what the call should be.
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Old Mon Jan 06, 2020, 11:28am
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No Call ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
"Ball handler" was batting the ball around on the floor (I can't remember if it was after his dribble had ended) and seemed to gain an advantage in a crowd of opponents, so I sounded my whistle and ruled a travel (or maybe an illegal dribble). I discussed this with my partner after the game and she convinced me that I was incorrect in my ruling (should have been no call). I spent a long time in the rulebook and casebook (and may have brought it to the Forum) and decided that she was correct, there was no violation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
... one can easily push the ball along the floor in a controlled fashion. At least in these cases, the action mentioned was meant to be a controlled manner of pushing the ball.
In my situation (above) there were definitely pushes in a deliberate, controlled manner, and it definitely was an advantage for the ball "handler", as he deliberately put his opponents at a definite disadvantage by pushing the ball away from his defenders.

But with all that, the correct call is still a no call.

In this situation, the ball "handler" is not holding the ball. In this situation, by rule, the ball "handler" is not dribbling the ball. By rule, not a travel. By rule, not an illegal dribble. By rule, nothing illegal.

The coaches and fans can complain until the cows come home (I work a lot of games in rural areas, with John Deere tractors in the school parking lots), the correct call is a no call and play on.

Confucius says, "If it's not illegal, it's legal".
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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Jan 06, 2020 at 12:28pm.
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Old Mon Jan 06, 2020, 11:42am
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I've got nothing here....albeit it's really odd and probably going to get some questions from the defensive team coach and their all-knowing fans

While yes, it is "controlled" by the "ball handler" as a deliberate action...I can't say it's an illegal dribble (he hasn't dribbled) ..and we haven't established a pivot foot to meet the requirements for a travel violation...
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Old Mon Jan 06, 2020, 03:05pm
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I can think of one realistic version of this scenario:

A1 chases down an interrupted dribble with the ball now rolling slowly on the floor. Right before B1 gets to the ball, A1 bats it to cause it to roll away from B1, then bats it again to cause it to roll away from B2, then A1 chases the ball down and picks it up.
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Last edited by Raymond; Tue Jan 07, 2020 at 10:40am.
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