The Official Forum

The Official Forum (https://forum.officiating.com/)
-   Basketball (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/)
-   -   rule question (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/104898-rule-question.html)

stewcall Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:47pm

rule question
 
Team A in the back court rolls the ball in bounds. Player A2 bats the ball forward 4-5 times--- Clock starts at the first bat ball. The question for me is are the bat balls legal or illegal? Our interpreter said he thought it was illegal, but would seek further clarification. If it is illegal? what is the call...
Is it a dribble?
Interested in what folks think
stew in Va
thanks in advance

SC Official Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:49pm

A dribble involves pushing or batting the ball to the floor.

If the ball is rolling on the floor, batting it does not meet the definition of a dribble.

WhistlesAndStripes Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:50pm

Iím just trying to picture this in my mind to see if any of the actions as described appear to be illegal. I donít see anything that would prevent that. Play on.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

bucky Sun Jan 05, 2020 02:09pm

Case: The ball rolls near A1. A1 begins pushing the ball, with one hand, along the floor all over the court and finally picks the ball up. A1 then begins dribbling. Ruling? Does it matter if the ball was pushed with two hands?

Case: A1 is dribbling ball and then picks up his dribble. A1 then places the ball on the floor and ceases to have contact with the ball. A1 then picks up the ball. Ruling?

Case: A1 is dribbling ball and then picks up his dribble. A1 then places the ball on the floor and ceases to have contact with the ball. A1 then pushes the ball along the floor for 10 feet and then A2 picks the ball up. Ruling?

Case: A1 is dribbling ball and then picks up his dribble. A1 then places the ball on the floor and ceases to have contact with the ball. A1 then pushes the ball along the floor for 10 feet. A1 picks up the ball. Ruling?

BillyMac Sun Jan 05, 2020 02:28pm

It Can Happen ...
 
I had something similar happen to me in a Catholic middle school game fifteen years ago (remember it like it was yesterday). "Ball handler" was batting the ball around on the floor (I can't remember if it was after his dribble had ended) and seemed to gain an advantage in a crowd of opponents, so I sounded my whistle and ruled a travel (or maybe an illegal dribble).

I discussed this with my partner after the game and she convinced me that I was incorrect in my ruling (should have been no call). I spent a long time in the rulebook and casebook (and may have brought it to the Forum) and decided that she was correct, there was no violation.

If you can fumble the ball around trying to catch pass and move several feet without a violation, why can't one do the same with a ball on the floor?

Camron Rust Sun Jan 05, 2020 02:36pm

I'd say you're stepped into an area not covered in the rules.

It partially meets the concept of dribbling, but it doesn't quite meet the literal definition...so does that make it an illegal dribble???

If it is a controlled action, I'm going to invoke 2-3 and treat it like a dribble. It is close enough in purpose and principle.

BillyMac Sun Jan 05, 2020 02:59pm

You've Stepped Into The Twilight Zone ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1036528)
I'd say you're stepped into an area not covered in the rules. If it is a controlled action, I'm going to invoke 2-3 and treat it like a dribble.

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

But are you sure it's a duck?

It looks just like a dribble, but a dribble in only two dimensions, just left and right, forward and back, no up and down.

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.f...=0&w=415&h=196

bucky Sun Jan 05, 2020 08:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1036527)
If you can fumble the ball around trying to catch pass and move several feet without a violation, why can't one do the same with a ball on the floor?

I reckon you can if it is indeed a fumble, but one can easily push the ball along the floor in a controlled fashion. At least in these cases, the action mentioned was meant to be a controlled manner of pushing the ball.

Seems like a no call however, theoretically, one could easily gain an advantage by such actions.

Nevadaref Sun Jan 05, 2020 09:27pm

Player control is defined as holding or dribbling the ball.
This action is neither of those. Therefore, we do not have a player in control of the ball. This player may bat the ball along the floor as much as desired. It is up to an opponent to come put a stop to it.

All this constitutes is a player batting a loose ball.

bucky Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:22am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1036535)
Player control is defined as holding or dribbling the ball.
This action is neither of those. Therefore, we do not have a player in control of the ball. This player may bat the ball along the floor as much as desired. It is up to an opponent to come put a stop to it.

All this constitutes is a player batting a loose ball.

Not quite. I would not use the word "batting" but rather pushing. Indeed, it may not fit the definition of player control via holding/dribbling, however the player is indeed completely in control of the ball. Perhaps we are not envisioning the same action but the way I meant to describe it, the player is controlling the ball by pushing it along the floor. Now, this is certainly nothing that any of use will experience. If it were to happen, obviously the defense would immediately put a stop to it. Also, by pushing the ball along the floor and guiding it directly, this is not a loose ball as far as application, maybe by definition, but not actual action. The player is controlling the ball.

I am anxious to try it the next time I play some pick-up ball. The debate/argument that ensues will surely be great entertainment.

stewcall Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:03am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1036528)
I'd say you're stepped into an area not covered in the rules.

It partially meets the concept of dribbling, but it doesn't quite meet the literal definition...so does that make it an illegal dribble???

If it is a controlled action, I'm going to invoke 2-3 and treat it like a dribble. It is close enough in purpose and principle.

This seems to answer my question--- for me it's either a dribble or nothing--- If it is a dribble-- Then Player grabs the ball with 2 hands and then dribbles we have a double dribble--- YIKES---I think I'll go with a no call
thanks all
stew in VA

Nevadaref Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:13am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1036536)
Not quite. I would not use the word "batting" but rather pushing. Indeed, it may not fit the definition of player control via holding/dribbling, however the player is indeed completely in control of the ball. Perhaps we are not envisioning the same action but the way I meant to describe it, the player is controlling the ball by pushing it along the floor. Now, this is certainly nothing that any of use will experience. If it were to happen, obviously the defense would immediately put a stop to it. Also, by pushing the ball along the floor and guiding it directly, this is not a loose ball as far as application, maybe by definition, but not actual action. The player is controlling the ball.

I am anxious to try it the next time I play some pick-up ball. The debate/argument that ensues will surely be great entertainment.

Your definition of player control is not the rules book definition. That is why you are having difficulty with what the call should be.

BillyMac Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:28am

No Call ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1036527)
"Ball handler" was batting the ball around on the floor (I can't remember if it was after his dribble had ended) and seemed to gain an advantage in a crowd of opponents, so I sounded my whistle and ruled a travel (or maybe an illegal dribble). I discussed this with my partner after the game and she convinced me that I was incorrect in my ruling (should have been no call). I spent a long time in the rulebook and casebook (and may have brought it to the Forum) and decided that she was correct, there was no violation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1036534)
... one can easily push the ball along the floor in a controlled fashion. At least in these cases, the action mentioned was meant to be a controlled manner of pushing the ball.

In my situation (above) there were definitely pushes in a deliberate, controlled manner, and it definitely was an advantage for the ball "handler", as he deliberately put his opponents at a definite disadvantage by pushing the ball away from his defenders.

But with all that, the correct call is still a no call.

In this situation, the ball "handler" is not holding the ball. In this situation, by rule, the ball "handler" is not dribbling the ball. By rule, not a travel. By rule, not an illegal dribble. By rule, nothing illegal.

The coaches and fans can complain until the cows come home (I work a lot of games in rural areas, with John Deere tractors in the school parking lots), the correct call is a no call and play on.

Confucius says, "If it's not illegal, it's legal".

RefsNCoaches Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:42am

I've got nothing here....albeit it's really odd and probably going to get some questions from the defensive team coach and their all-knowing fans :D

While yes, it is "controlled" by the "ball handler" as a deliberate action...I can't say it's an illegal dribble (he hasn't dribbled) ..and we haven't established a pivot foot to meet the requirements for a travel violation...

Raymond Mon Jan 06, 2020 03:05pm

I can think of one realistic version of this scenario:

A1 chases down an interrupted dribble with the ball now rolling slowly on the floor. Right before B1 gets to the ball, A1 bats it to cause it to roll away from B1, then bats it again to cause it to roll away from B2, then A1 chases the ball down and picks it up.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:57am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1