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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 25, 2019, 09:10am
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Can I circle back here? Are we saying no team control exists between the time the throw in ends (B2 touches it in the back court) and someone gaining player control?


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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 25, 2019, 09:38am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwodar View Post
Can I circle back here? Are we saying no team control exists between the time the throw in ends (B2 touches it in the back court) and someone gaining player control?


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You are confusing team control for foul purposes and team control for everything else. This is understandable if you haven't read NFHS interps/comments since the rule as written still leaves something to be desired.

Team control for foul purposes begins when the throw-in begins. A loose ball following a legal touch would still be under team control of the throw-in team for fouls only (i.e. we don't shoot FTs).

For violations there is no team control until player control is established inbounds. This is why a throw-in that is deflected by A1 in his FC that is then touched by Team A in its BC is not a BC violation.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 25, 2019, 09:40am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
You are confusing team control for foul purposes and team control for everything else. This is understandable if you haven't read NFHS interps/comments since the rule as written still leaves something to be desired.



Team control for foul purposes begins when the throw-in begins. A loose ball following a legal touch would still be under team control of the throw-in team for fouls only (i.e. we don't shoot FTs).



For violations there is no team control until player control is established inbounds. This is why a throw-in that is deflected by A1 in his FC that is then touched by Team A in its BC is not a BC violation.


Thank you. Can this be found in the 2019-2020 rule book?


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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 25, 2019, 09:53am
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Player Control Is Obtained Inbounds ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Team control for foul purposes begins when the throw-in begins. A loose ball following a legal touch would still be under team control of the throw-in team for fouls only (i.e. we don't shoot FTs).
Agree.

The "team control foul" period on a throwin ends when player control is obtained inbounds.

4-19-7: A team-control foul is a common foul committed by a member of the team that has team control or by a member of the throw-in team from the start of the throw-in until player control is obtained inbounds.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 25, 2019, 09:55am
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Citation ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwodar View Post
Can this be found in the 2019-2020 rule book?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
4-19-7: A team-control foul is a common foul committed by a member of the team that has team control or by a member of the throw-in team from the start of the throw-in until player control is obtained inbounds.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 25, 2019, 09:57am
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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Yes.


So this explains the foul portion but doesn’t help explain the 10 second count start point.


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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 25, 2019, 10:02am
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Additional Citations ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwodar View Post
So this explains the foul portion but doesn’t help explain the 10 second count start point.
Which is why we need additional citations:

9-8: A player shall not be, nor may his/her team be, in continuous control of the ball which is in his/her backcourt for 10 seconds.

4-12-2: A team is in control of the ball:
a. When a player of the team is in control.
b. While a live ball is being passed among teammates.

4-12-1: A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball.

Fouls (Rule 10) and violations (Rule 9)? Apples and oranges.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Oct 25, 2019 at 10:26am.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 25, 2019, 11:15am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Indeed, why not rewrite the NFHS rule for team control (and, by extension, the backcourt 10-second count) to match the college rule? If there is team control for 1 purpose (fouls) why not have team control for other purposes as well.
Because we do not have a shot clock (which is why the rule changed) and not everything that college creates is gold. I have no issues with the current NF rule about any of this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwodar View Post
I am in complete agreement here... the fact that a situation exists based on the rules where a team can sit in the back court unguarded for significantly longer than 10 seconds is absurd.
I have been officiating, watching and played for over 30 years of my life and forgive me as I have never once seen what you suggest is "absurd." For one the defense is not sitting and waiting for anyone to just stay in the backcourt. When you see that happen, let me know. And once you have control of the ball, you have a count, which also is going to happen because they are not giving the ball away to the defense easily.

You really are making this way too complicated. It really is not that hard to understand. The count for 10 seconds only starts once the team in control has actual possession of the ball in the backcourt. It has nothing to do with the throw-in control.

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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 25, 2019, 12:01pm
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Never, Ever ...

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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
... I have never once seen what you suggest is "absurd." For one the defense is not sitting and waiting for anyone to just stay in the backcourt.
Absolutely agree. Absurd is a good description. Never observed it. Never will.

But sometimes rules and definitions take on a new light when examined under ultra extreme circumstances that will only happen never in an officiating lifetime.

I'm sure that most of us have observed teams legally taking more than ten seconds to get the ball across the division line after the first inbounds touch after the throwin pass, legal because the thowin pass was fumbled around, maybe rolling around on the floor, before eventually being picked up, caught, or dribbled.

I've seen interesting situations in prep school games because here in Connecticut prep schools use hybrid NFHS/NCAA rules. NFHS rule for ten second count (starts at holding or dribbling), NCAA rule for shot clock (starts on first touch inbounds). Fans scream for ten second violations just because the shot clock has ticked off ten seconds. Stupid hybrid rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
It has nothing to do with the throw-in control.
Simple. Terse. Correct.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Oct 25, 2019 at 06:12pm.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 25, 2019, 07:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Indeed, why not rewrite the NFHS rule for team control (and, by extension, the backcourt 10-second count) to match the college rule? If there is team control for 1 purpose (fouls) why not have team control for other purposes as well.
Because they don't want to get into a bunch of other unintended consequences that would cause them to rewrite the entire rulebook and confuse people for 20 years.


The better solution is to go back to the old and complete team control definition and forget all about call it team control on a throwin. Instead, just declare that fouls that are committed by the throwing once the ball becomes live for a throw are team control fouls just like fouls by an airborne shooter are considered player control fouls even though the player doesn't have player control.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 25, 2019, 09:10pm
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Originally Posted by rwodar View Post
So this explains the foul portion but doesn’t help explain the 10 second count start point.


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Back in old days the control, player and team rule, 4-12 did not contain 4-12-2d-“when a player of team has disposal of ball for throwin.” Also, 4-12-6 used to specifically say there is no team control during a throwin. It was clear back then team control was an INBOUNDS concept. There was also no team control foul definition.

They then decided they didn’t want to shoot so many free throws so they created team control fouls and said no FTs for those. As mentioned above, team control definition was an inbounds thing. So no FTs for illegal screens etc. by team in control of ball inbounds. FTs were still shot if the throwin team fouled during the throwin. (Assuming bonus)
They then decided they didn’t want to shoot FTs when throwin team fouled during throwin so they added 4-12-2d language.

Adding that language to the rest of rule 4-12 makes it read like once ball at disposal for throwin team control exists and continues until ball dead, field goal attempt etc. I understand the confusion of it because it reads like you interpreted it.

As noted by others, they added language to make it clear team control during throwin and in til player control is obtained is for foul purposes only.

They were not intending to change Violation concepts. BC count has always started when player controls ball inbounds. They were trying to eliminate some FTs and confused many folks.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 25, 2019, 10:42pm
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There are only 2 logically consistent ways to resolve this conundrum of having team control exist (and simultaneously not exist) at different times for different purposes: either eliminate throw-ins from the discussion of team control altogether, or introduce a shot clock into NFHS basketball.

Some states use a shot clock with the visible 10-second count (MD boys), while others have modified their backcourt count rule to incorporate a non-visible count that starts per existing college rules (DC boys). In either approach, the states using a shot clock recognize that team control exists from the throw-in. The only question is whether player control is required (or not) to start the 10-second count off the throw-in. However, we (the NFHS rules-making and enforcing community) can decide this once a shot clock is adopted for high school basketball, whether nationally or by one's local state association.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 25, 2019, 11:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwodar View Post
I wave the white flag here and concede that there is nothing in the rule book to support my argument. This is a wild scenario that I was wrong about, the 10 second discussion conflicts with the college rule (count starts once ball is legally touched) and it blows my mind how flawed the HS rule seems to be. My apologies for being abrasive about it.


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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Sat Oct 26, 2019, 01:04am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
There are only 2 logically consistent ways to resolve this conundrum of having team control exist (and simultaneously not exist) at different times for different purposes: either eliminate throw-ins from the discussion of team control altogether, or introduce a shot clock into NFHS basketball.

Some states use a shot clock with the visible 10-second count (MD boys), while others have modified their backcourt count rule to incorporate a non-visible count that starts per existing college rules (DC boys). In either approach, the states using a shot clock recognize that team control exists from the throw-in. The only question is whether player control is required (or not) to start the 10-second count off the throw-in. However, we (the NFHS rules-making and enforcing community) can decide this once a shot clock is adopted for high school basketball, whether nationally or by one's local state association.
Overkill. The shot clock has absolutely nothing to do with this. There are many ways to fix that, all of which don't take the equivalent of using dynamite to kill a mosquito.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Sat Oct 26, 2019, 10:20am
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I think 4-12-2d should be removed. Then a 4-12-7 created to say” for foul purposes only, there shall be team control when ball at disposal of team for throwin until player control obtained inbounds.

Something like that to make it read better than it does now....
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