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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 07:56am
Courageous When Prudent
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed View Post
1. Changing the goaltending rule to mimic NBA/NCAA-M/NCAA-W/FIBA (every f-ing major rule set btw) where you cannot block the ball once it has touched the backboard. This is an easy rule change, easy to call, easy to write, and it blows my mind they haven't done it.

....
I don't think that is the rule in NCAA-M. At least not what you wrote.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 07:58am
Courageous When Prudent
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
I do not doubt you, at least in your area/state, but I am yet to see a jacket with a local association patch/logo on it. I see patches (association/state/US flag) on shirts.

In an odd twist however, I just received a new jacket and am planning on putting a state association patch on it.
It's the norm in VA. Have yet to see a HS jacket that didn't have the association logo on it.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 08:15am
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
When it can be heard. The hand is a backup for when it can't.
So define the mechanic for 0.000001% of the games. Got it.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 09:11am
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
It's enforced strictly here. And if you're caught not enforcing it you'll hear about it.
Never is an issue if it is not enforced here. If anything we are asked to do it early and not late in the 4th quarter when we have not addressed getting out of huddles before this time. So I guess this is an area issue that is not one here for the most part. I hardly see a single official ever do this. When I have done this, the teams are usually out of the huddle and wondering around like they have no idea what they are supposed to do. Then they are ready the rest of the game for some strange and odd reason.

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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 09:19am
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Perhaps, if all high school gyms had Precision Timing System equipment, then we could think about abolishing the "stop clock for violation signal". However, since that is not the case, the 3 stop clock signals are what stop the game clock, until someone will come up with a 4th approved signal to stop the clock for a timeout that is different from the stop-clock-for-violation signal.
I do not know what the price is now, but this used to be about a $5000 investment for each school. And the schools that once had this, do not use it anymore because they did not pay for it but were using it in the first place, but someone donated the system to eventually have it purchased. Now we have issues getting an extra $5 in pay and now we want to add another expense to schools and we have not even talked about a shot clock, which people like yourself keep advocating for that will also be very expensive. I remember when my state was big on uniform enforcement and schools were crying poor as it cost them several thousands of dollars just to purchase uniforms for one of the teams and that they uniform purchasing were on like a 3 or 4-year cycle.

BTW, the "open hand" signal is not just for violations, it is for all stoppages of clock that do not involve a foul or a held ball. IJS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Re: jackets, they are usually the only thing out there that can identify which association an official belongs to (jackets may have local, as well as state, identifiers on them), unless an association pays extra money to buy it's members custom shirts. So, jackets have multiple practical functions.
Players have warmups, so should we in some way. And in my state mostly we have a state patch on the jacket. Not everyone puts something on from their association. I used to but I work so many different places it was a pain to try to match where I was working.

Peace
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 09:22am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
It does not say anything about officiating shirts (vertical black/white stripes, grey w/ pin stripes, etc.) either in the Rules but I bet you wear one. Maybe re-read the manual. You might find jackets mentioned there.
Wrong.

Rule 2-1-1: "The official's uniform shall be a black-and-white striped shirt..."

I'm not the one who wants to get rid of jackets, so why would I look it up?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Perhaps, if all high school gyms had Precision Timing System equipment, then we could think about abolishing the "stop clock for violation signal". However, since that is not the case, the 3 stop clock signals are what stop the game clock, until someone will come up with a 4th approved signal to stop the clock for a timeout that is different from the stop-clock-for-violation signal.

Re: jackets, they are usually the only thing out there that can identify which association an official belongs to (jackets may have local, as well as state, identifiers on them), unless an association pays extra money to buy it's members custom shirts. So, jackets have multiple practical functions.
If you actually think that the timer is looking for your hand on an OOB call, I don't know what to say. I've worked plenty of games (without PTS) under mechanics sets where you don't stop the clock on OOB and I've never had the timer ask "Can you put your hand up so I know when to stop the clock?"

Also, why would one's association need to be identified? For the fans?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
When it can be heard. The hand is a backup for when it can't.
Timers aren't looking for our hand. When the ball goes OOB they know the clock is supposed to stop, regardless of whether they hear the whistle or not. If I put my hand up on an OOB and don't blow my whistle, my hand being up is not causing the timer to stop/not stop the clock.

While we're on this subject, chopping is pointless most of the time, too. When I used to run clocks in my pre-officiating days, I was never looking for an official's chop; I was looking for the ball to be touched.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 09:28am
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Another change I'd be happy to see is getting rid of visible 10-second backcourt counts. I know the NFHS rule is different than NCAA as to when the count starts after a throw-in (player control vs. first touch) but in most situations the count still starts at the same time.

This won't happen until we get a shot clock, and I'm not a shot clock advocate. So I'll carry on.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 10:04am
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Timers aren't looking for our hand. When the ball goes OOB they know the clock is supposed to stop, regardless of whether they hear the whistle or not. If I put my hand up on an OOB and don't blow my whistle, my hand being up is not causing the timer to stop/not stop the clock.

While we're on this subject, chopping is pointless most of the time, too. When I used to run clocks in my pre-officiating days, I was never looking for an official's chop; I was looking for the ball to be touched.
The mechanic IMO has little or nothing to do with what the timer is watching. The issue is that officials will probably be pointing the wrong way a lot if you take this away. I know we try to make things because we understand how it is done and have been doing it for some time, but remember NF mechanics are for officials all level of officials. That means the first year guy that has a hard time blowing their damn whistle. We cannot come at this only from the perspective of what we have been doing for over 10 years and the NCAA who has very experienced and trained officials doing the very same thing. As a clinician for my state, I can tell you this might not be earth-shattering of a mechanic, but it helps eliminate some basic issue on basic plays.

Peace
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 10:06am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Another change I'd be happy to see is getting rid of visible 10-second backcourt counts. I know the NFHS rule is different than NCAA as to when the count starts after a throw-in (player control vs. first touch) but in most situations the count still starts at the same time.

This won't happen until we get a shot clock, and I'm not a shot clock advocate. So I'll carry on.
Even NCAA has not gotten rid of visible 10-second backcourt counts. By rule and the CCA Manuals, there still is a visible 10-second count when the shot clock is off (usually in the last 30 seconds of the period) or unavailable (e.g. shot clock malfunction, shot clock is kept on an alternate timing device at the table).

SC Official, I thought you were an NCAA Men's official, and that rule set, like NFHS, requires that an official stop the clock on all fouls and violations, with an open hand (violations and miscellaneous), fist (fouls), or thumbs up (held balls). J.D. Collins has been making that a point of emphasis in his training videos for the last few years, and in the last few editions of the CCA Men's Manual. Unless the rules redefine the clock as stopping on the whistle, which is now the case for NBA rules, the official's signal is how the clock is stopped, by rule. I have seen officials tell the timer to "watch my hand/watch my signal" when starting and/or stopping the clock, especially in the last minute of a quarter, so at least some timers still react to the official's signals to start/stop the game clock.

I would also like to see the backcourt rules changed to match NCAA. The NCAA rule is fairer to the offense (they can retrieve all deflected balls, not just ones that the defense touched last), and more consistent to administer (count starts when the ball is touched, and the touch is usually accompanied by another visual cue in the shot clock starting).
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 11:07am
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Odd Plays, But They Happen ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
When the ball goes out of bounds everyone in the gym knows the ball is dead and the clock stops.
How about when a ball handler's shoe just barely touches a boundary? Or when a ball just barely touches a boundary? Or when the ball just barely touches a guy wire? Does everyone in the gymnasium, including the timekeeper, know that the ball is dead and the clock stops unless an official puts a whistle on the play? Does everyone in the gymnasium, and all timekeepers (at all levels of interscholastic basketball, maybe students in some freshman, or middle school games) know that the ball cannot legally pass over a rectangular backboard from either direction, or that the back of a backboard is out of bounds?

Does everyone in the gymnasium, and all timekeepers (at all levels of interscholastic basketball) know that when a ball handler inadvertently touches someone who is out of bounds (another player, a photographer, a coach, an official, etc.), without gaining an advantage, it's not considered an out of bounds violation?

SC Official makes a good point, most out of bounds violations are pretty obvious, but we still need officials (with a whistle and hopefully a signal) to rule on some odd, or close, situations.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Apr 16, 2019 at 01:19pm.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 11:20am
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Don't Give Me The Finger ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
It is kind of like how you signal a directional point and someone cares that you did not give the signal with 4 fingers and a tucked thumb. I had someone at my State Finals games make a comment to me about my "one finger point." No one over us that weekend said a word about it, but I did get an official that knows me (and I respect BTW) send me a text about my signal.
Comes up about every five or ten years here in my little corner of Connecticut. We're encouraged to do it the proper way, years go by and some rookies, who don't know any better, and some veterans, start using one finger, so we're reminded again.

It's not a big deal, but we might as well all be consistent.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 11:24am
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Look For The Union Label ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
... I am yet to see a jacket with a local association patch/logo on it.
Here in Connecticut each of our six local IAABO boards have their own style of jacket with their own local board logo embroidered on the jacket.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 11:39am
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Comes up about every five or ten years here in my little corner of Connecticut. We're encouraged to do it the proper way, years go by and some rookies, who don't know any better, and some veterans, start using one finger, so we're reminded again.

It's not a big deal, but we might as well all be consistent.
We are not robots. Just like we all do not deal with coaches and players the same, why do people care if I point with one finger or two? I would feel differently if how your hand looks make the call better, but it doesn't.

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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 12:02pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
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Do As I Say, Not As I Do ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
We are not robots ... why do people care if I point with one finger or two?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
It's not a big deal ...
You make a good point (get the call right and who cares about this signal) but aren't you some type of teacher/clinician/instructor in your state, or local area? Do you teach proper signals (maybe referring to the manual) or do you just let the new guys free lance, or use signals that they see their partners (both good and bad) use, or see on television in college or professional games?

To paraphrase Admiral Farragut, "Damn the NFHS Signal Chart, full speed ahead".

While there are much more important (and difficult) things for rookies to learn, don't you want them to, at least, start off using the proper signals (pretty easy to teach)? And I'm sure that there were many officials watching you work your state final. There are probably young officials who hang around to watch your regular season games as well. Don't you want to set a good example for your pupils/students/learners/members, many of whom want to emulate you?

Was, "We are not robots", your response to your friend who had the courage to offer constructive criticism to such a highly respected veteran official as yourself, while working a state final game, the ultimate form of respect for a high school official?

Full disclosure, we do a poor job here in my little corner of Connecticut of teaching player control foul signals. And nobody calls anybody out on an incorrect player control foul signal. Never. It's pretty much anything goes, just get it right, and/or sell it.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Apr 16, 2019 at 01:11pm.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 12:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Even NCAA has not gotten rid of visible 10-second backcourt counts. By rule and the CCA Manuals, there still is a visible 10-second count when the shot clock is off (usually in the last 30 seconds of the period) or unavailable (e.g. shot clock malfunction, shot clock is kept on an alternate timing device at the table).

SC Official, I thought you were an NCAA Men's official, and that rule set, like NFHS, requires that an official stop the clock on all fouls and violations, with an open hand (violations and miscellaneous), fist (fouls), or thumbs up (held balls). J.D. Collins has been making that a point of emphasis in his training videos for the last few years, and in the last few editions of the CCA Men's Manual. Unless the rules redefine the clock as stopping on the whistle, which is now the case for NBA rules, the official's signal is how the clock is stopped, by rule. I have seen officials tell the timer to "watch my hand/watch my signal" when starting and/or stopping the clock, especially in the last minute of a quarter, so at least some timers still react to the official's signals to start/stop the game clock.
Once again you think I need a lecture on what the rules and mechanics are. I don't.

What the rule says =/= What actually happens

Timers stop the clock when the whistle blows. They aren't looking at your hand. Hate to break it to you.
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