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  #61 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 02:55pm
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Pardon My French ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I have had timers say they couldn't hear the whistle over a crowd and saw the hand go up and stopped it once they saw that.
Touché.

But have you ever told a timekeeper to watch for this in advance?
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  #62 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 02:57pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
IAABO International weekly emails us a Play of the Week during the season. They always ask three questions. Was the call correct? Were the officials in the proper position to make the call? Were the signals correct?

These three questions seem to asked (and later answered) in priority order. Proper signals are important, but not as important as making the correct call and being in the right position to make a correct call.
OK, just like I do not work for IAABO you do not work for the IHSA which is not an IAABO state or has no significance to what we might individually. Just pointing out again that in my world people do not care about those minor details and I do not go around making that the most important issue when I am working a camp or running a class. Bigger fish to fry if you ask me.

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  #63 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 02:58pm
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Very Relevant ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Just for the record, often in replay at the NCAA level, they use the official's signal as the gauge for when the whistle was blown, because you cannot often hear the actual whistle on the audio.
Great point of information, very relevant to this topic, especially in college games.

A good reason for the stop the clock signal, especially in college games.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Apr 16, 2019 at 04:30pm.
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  #64 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 03:01pm
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Priority ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Bigger fish to fry if you ask me.
My post was actually agreeing with you, making the correct call and being in the right position to make a correct call are much more important than signals.

I believe that, on that, we can agree.

It's the degree of importance that we differ on.

You believe that proper signals are less important than what I believe, and that's alright, when in Rome, or Illinois, or Connecticut ...
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Apr 16, 2019 at 04:35pm.
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 11:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
When it can be heard. The hand is a backup for when it can't.
We should run a test where we have all three officials put up their hands simultaneously and see how long it takes the timer to stop the clock!
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 11:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
So you care about not standing out for a bit before the game even though you will stand out for the rest of the game, including half-time?
Much like players wear warmups before the game, I think refs should as well. I also like the pro style where we wear the jackets going into and coming out of halftime as well. It just looks sharp.
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 17, 2019, 09:35am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
My post was actually agreeing with you, making the correct call and being in the right position to make a correct call are much more important than signals.

I believe that, on that, we can agree.

It's the degree of importance that we differ on.

You believe that proper signals are less important than what I believe
, and that's alright, when in Rome, or Illinois, or Connecticut ...
That is actually not what I said. I said that it is less important to be perfect with the diagram or what the book describes in the picture. I believe that signals are important when they are giving proper information. Whether someone has their fingers in the perfect place. If you are giving the same information with a signal and no one is utterly confused, which I doubt anyone would be on a directional signal most of the time, then who cares if your fingers are not in the perfect place when giving the signal.

It has nothing to do with where I live either. No one makes that big of a deal about certain things and certainly, I have personally not be hurt by such things done as well.

Peace
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 17, 2019, 10:16am
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Minor, Just A Deal, Not A Big Deal ,..

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
It has nothing to do with where I live either. No one makes that big of a deal about certain things ...
Yes it does have to do with where you officiate, but not for you personally because with your accomplished resume I doubt that anybody, officiating anywhere, Illinois, Connecticut, Rome, etc., would criticize you for something so minor (I'm still surprised that you were criticized for it in your state final, but there's at least one person in your area who thinks it's a "deal", not a big deal, but a "deal, not minor enough to ignore, but enough of a "deal" to make a constructive comment).

But if you were a young official, especially one who seems to have an aptitude for officiating, is off to a good start, and might have a bright future, here in my little corner of Connecticut, you would eventually bump into someone, one of our interpreters, a mentor, a mechanics training committee member, or a member of our evaluation committee, who would point out the minor issue, during either an official, or an unofficial, evaluation observation.

Probably not me, similar to you, I tend to concentrate other things. I would rarely, if at all, point out this minor flaw (I have my own signal problems).

Here in my little corner of Connecticut, this minor issue would probably be ignored if done by a struggling, deer in the headlights, young official, who barely knows if the basketball is stuffed, or inflated. There are bigger fish to fry, and more important things to critique if we are ever to turn this young person into a competent basketball official.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Apr 17, 2019 at 10:25am.
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 17, 2019, 10:42am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Yes it does have to do with where you officiate, but not for you personally because with your accomplished resume I doubt that anybody, officiating anywhere, Illinois, Connecticut, Rome, etc., would criticize you for something so minor (I'm still surprised that you were criticized for it in your state final, but there's at least one person in your area who thinks it's a "deal", not a big deal, but a "deal, not minor enough to ignore, but enough of a "deal" to make a constructive comment).

But if you were a young official, especially one who seems to have an aptitude for officiating, is off to a good start, and might have a bright future, here in my little corner of Connecticut, you would eventually bump into someone, one of our interpreters, a mentor, a mechanics training committee member, or a member of our evaluation committee, who would point out the minor issue, during either an official, or an unofficial, evaluation observation. Probably not me, similar to you, I tend to concentrate other things. I would rarely, if at all, point out this minor flaw.
Just so you know, there are people that make issues out of those things here, but if the assignor you work for does not care (many don't) or the clinicians at the camp you attend do not care then it does not matter. All that matters is what the people you work for and if they give you games or do not give you games based off of their narrow position. Most assignors that I have worked with are going to tweak things you do, but they are not going to stop giving you games because something in the book is not "perfect."

For the record, the State Tournament Officials are giving games by people that never give games during the regular season. The State Administrator in that particular sport makes all the postseason assignments. One of his mandates is to use officials that have worked enough games, have certain ratings and have certain levels of experience. I do not think he is holding people back from an assignment just because they do not give a perfect signal. He would be in trouble if that is the only reason you do not work or do not work a certain level in the tournament. And to get to the State Finals takes a lot of steps. You do not just one year go from a Regional to a Super-Sectional for the most part. You have to climb that latter and then you get that shot at the State Finals at some point. Even to work a championship game usually does not come to someone working their first State Final assignment. This was my third State Final assignment and I did not work a title game in my first year and I did not even think I was going to work a title game in my third year because on my second trip I worked the 3A game. Trust me we have a meeting before the tournament starts where we discuss many things that we are expected to do. Mechanics is something heavily talked about but no one discusses hand position of a signal. Even if we give preliminary signals which are "required" by the state and there usually is a little bet we have with the head official about giving the proper sequence for a team control foul, which most of us never do properly. We bet that we give the head official a beer every time we do it wrong. I and another good friend just got him beers anyway because we could never do it "perfect."

I am sure that is not that much different in other places. It might be mentioned, but that is not going to stop a good official from getting certain places. If it does, shame on those people in power that have no perspective. The goal should be to put out the best officials you can at the time that are avaialble to you, not to nitpick the little things they do that do not affect their job performance.

Peace
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  #70 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 17, 2019, 11:05am
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Vince Lombardi ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
... holding people back from an assignment just because they do not give a perfect signal ... It might be mentioned, but that is not going to stop a good official from getting certain places ... The goal should be to put out the best officials you can at the time that are available to you, not to nitpick the little things they do that do not affect their job performance.
Agree. Perfect signals should be way, way, down on the priority list for tough assignments, if on the list at all.

“Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence.” (Vince Lombardi)
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

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Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Apr 17, 2019 at 12:16pm.
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  #71 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 17, 2019, 11:17am
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The restricted area is another change to high school basketball that is floating around. Minnesota and North Dakota have already adopted it on there own, so maybe this could be the year it goes national. I'd be on board with a restricted area coming to high school basketball, because it would prevent most charges under the basket (the only exceptions would be for primary defenders or players during rebounding activity), increase safety for the players, and make at least some block/charge calls easier. This would also lessen the learning curve of high school officials who want to go to the college level, because the restricted area won't be so alien to them once they have learned to call games using it.
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  #72 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 17, 2019, 12:12pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
The restricted area is another change to high school basketball that is floating around. Minnesota and North Dakota have already adopted it on there own, so maybe this could be the year it goes national. I'd be on board with a restricted area coming to high school basketball, because it would prevent most charges under the basket (the only exceptions would be for primary defenders or players during rebounding activity), increase safety for the players, and make at least some block/charge calls easier. This would also lessen the learning curve of high school officials who want to go to the college level, because the restricted area won't be so alien to them once they have learned to call games using it.
God no. We have enough problems at the other levels with this and now you want to have officials that can hardly call a simple play like this and add something else.

Everything from other levels does not make it better. NF Rules are not for you to be prepared at the other levels. Football and Baseball officials do just fine with other rules when they move up the latter.

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  #73 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 17, 2019, 12:22pm
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Different Strokes For Different Folks (Sly And The Family Stone, 1968) ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Everything from other levels does not make it better. NF Rules are not for you to be prepared at the other levels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
God no ...now you want to have officials that can hardly call a simple play like this and add something else.
Agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
... a struggling, deer in the headlights, young official, who barely knows if the basketball is stuffed, or inflated.
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  #74 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 17, 2019, 12:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
The restricted area is another change to high school basketball that is floating around. Minnesota and North Dakota have already adopted it on there own, so maybe this could be the year it goes national. I'd be on board with a restricted area coming to high school basketball, because it would prevent most charges under the basket (the only exceptions would be for primary defenders or players during rebounding activity), increase safety for the players, and make at least some block/charge calls easier. This would also lessen the learning curve of high school officials who want to go to the college level, because the restricted area won't be so alien to them once they have learned to call games using it.
I see no reason why we need to get rid of charges under the basket. "Because NCAA and NBA have the RA" isn't good enough for me. Neither is "it'll prepare players and officials for the next level."

Yet again, another solution looking for a problem.
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  #75 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 17, 2019, 12:36pm
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Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
I see no reason why we need to get rid of charges under the basket. "Because NCAA and NBA have the RA" isn't good enough for me. Neither is "it'll prepare players and officials for the next level."

Yet again, another solution looking for a problem.
We finally agree on something!!!

Anything that involves adding/removing lines on the actual playing floor (not OOB) or anything else that costs schools money would not be implemented right away anyways.
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