2019-20 NFHS: Rumors/Desires?

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by AremRed

1. Changing the goaltending rule to mimic NBA/NCAA-M/NCAA-W/FIBA (every f-ing major rule set btw) where you cannot block the ball once it has touched the backboard. This is an easy rule change, easy to call, easy to write, and it blows my mind they haven't done it.

2. Eliminating the INANE "resumption of play procedure". Putting the ball down is an EASY way to piss off players, coaches, and fans and even if the team is extremely late makes the ref crew look terrible. Give us the option to assess a delay-of-game warning like every other reasonable rule set out there.

3. Eliminating the need for a coach to sit down after a direct or indirect technical foul. I get the reasoning but it pisses off the coaches and makes refs a) less likely to call technical fouls on the coach/bench and b) less likely to have the balls and make the coach sit after the tech. And even if they are told to sit they are terrible at remembering and almost never get a second one for standing.

4. Point of emphasis for schools properly marking coaching box and officials enforcing it. I have seen SO MANY games this year with the floor not marked properly, not all the chairs inside the team area, coaches on the floor yelling at officials, coaches camping at halfcourt to coach offense/defense on other side of the floor, and assistant coaches standing and in one case in my game coming out of the head coaching box to call a play at half court. I heard many times this season "you're the only one to enforce this all year" and that's wrong.

There are other ones: delayed violation for player running OOB along the baseline, re-subbing once the ball has become live instead of sit-a-tick, requiring two horns for replacements intervals and officials calling techs when coaches slow roll a replacement sub, restricted area, shot clock (gonna have way more stoppages due to shitty operators), changing full timeouts to 75 seconds, allowing the headbands with extensions for girls (so dumb that pro and college allow it yet it's a "safety issue" in HS), clarifying the team control rule for fouls during throw-ins only.

But I digress.

To number 1, I say AMEN! I would not like to have to change what I call goaltending just because I work a high school game today and a (Junior) College game tomorrow. I would like to add that offensive goaltending is not a thing, unless the makers of the NFHS rules want alley-oops to be illegal (alley-oops would be illegal by application of goaltending rules to the offense, at least as the rules are currently written).

Number 2 makes sense as well. I would not mind that, because that might make some officials less reluctant to warn and penalize teams for delay of games.

I have done #3 on multiple occasions. There was one tie where I gave a technical foul to a middle school coach for yelling at the officials while being on the other side of the division line. I had also called a technical foul on a girls JV coach for jumping up and down to protest a traveling call. When I saw her standing later in the game, I reminded her that she needed to sit. When she understood that the requirement to sit after a technical foul is the rule in high school, she thanked me for clarifying the situation, and the game moved on with no further incidents.

If I had a choice for one rule change, I would push most strongly for the shot clock, because it would make the DMV area, if not the nation, consistent in terms of pace of play. Maryland, DC, and the other shot clock states are not going to abolish the shot clock just because other states nearby don't use them, so adopting a shot clock nationwide would bring them back into alignment with NFHS, and allow the other 40 or so state athletic associations to hear whatever good ideas these states have to bring to the table. If all states have a shot clock, then there would not be as big of a learning curve for officials who move between states (a common sithation, because many people move for work anyway), or who try to move from high school to college ball. This is in addition to no stalling, reduced deliberate fouls, and other officiating benefits of implementing a shot clock.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Hopefully those "people" aren't officials. Because officials know the real reason why high school officials do this.

That split second gives the high school officials a chance to see what their partner's have on double whistles. Two open hands. One open hand and one closed fist. One open hand and one held ball signal. The split second allows some eye contact and communication before another signal is given, like a direction.

Great point. I don't know why some call it the "stop-the-clock" signal. It is a violation signal. If they get rid of the violation signal for OOB plays (like NCAAW), then they better at least eliminate it for all violations.

Many make some good suggestions. To them add:

*) Eliminate jackets. A totally, unnecessary expense/use.
*) Eliminate captains meetings. A totally, unnecessary time waster.
*) Meet both coaches simultaneously. This would be a nice time saver and prohibit the chance of perceived bias/favoritism. If still have captains, have them attend this meeting too.
*) Eliminate rules that are never enforced.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not totally disagree, just think officials at those levels get this wrong still. I have seen so many plays at the NCAA level where the ball touched by the defender first and then hits the backboard and it is called. I still think the current rule fits better and honestly wish the NCAA would get rid of this on the Men's side. I get it, leave the ball alone but there is still too much of a debate over this call that I feel was not there before also.

Just because officials at the NBA/NCAA-M/NCAA-W/FIBA level sometimes get goaltending calls wrong doesn't mean we should keep the HS rule as-is. This would create much greater continuity between rule sets on a play that happens more and more often.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

NCAA Men's still has this procedure for the most part (which we do not use the delays there either). It is rarely used by anyone at any level. And in my experience you do it once, it usually shut down the delays.

Again, just because NCAA-M officials are hesitant to give DoG warnings doesn't mean it would be a bad change at the HS level. HS officials put the ball down regularly, which pisses everyone off. Change it to a warning put in the book and HS officials would give that warning and everyone would be less upset overall.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Delay for running OOB would be a good change. Also that line "You are the first person to enforce....blah, blah, blah" is just a line given to make it seem like you are being overly technical. It is a lie much of the time. I know officials that have enforced rules in the game right before an that still comes out of their mouth. I would in theory love to have a shot clock in HS, but we are going to be correcting so many mistakes and games will be influenced by all those mistakes that it will become a real distraction. If we cannot get good people to run these clocks at the small college level, we are really going to have issues at the HS level. I would rather not have the headache, but it would be good if run properly, even though I do not think it is going to change the game that much in this era.

Agreed on everything else.

[SE Minnestoa Re]

Originally Posted by bucky

Great point. I don't know why some call it the "stop-the-clock" signal. It is a violation signal. If they get rid of the violation signal for OOB plays (like NCAAW), then they better at least eliminate it for all violations.

Many make some good suggestions. To them add:

*) Eliminate jackets. A totally, unnecessary expense.
*) Eliminate captains meetings. A totally, unnecessary time waster.
*) Meet both coaches simultaneously. This would be a nice time saver and prohibit the chance of perceived bias/favoritism. If still have captains, have them attend this meeting too.

I'd freeze to death before a game if I didn't have my jacket. Gyms aren't that warm in Minnesota and Wisconsin

Originally Posted by bucky

Great point. I don't know why some call it the "stop-the-clock" signal. It is a violation signal. If they get rid of the violation signal for OOB plays (like NCAAW), then they better at least eliminate it for all violations.

Many make some good suggestions. To them add:

*) Eliminate jackets. A totally, unnecessary expense.
*) Eliminate captains meetings. A totally, unnecessary time waster.
*) Meet both coaches simultaneously. This would be a nice time saver and prohibit the chance of perceived bias/favoritism. If still have captains, have them attend this meeting too.

I like the jackets. Keeps me warm in some gyms. I don't like standing out too much before games and I think it looks sharp. The cost isn't really all that much.

Captains meetings I don't really care for, but it's nice to touch base with at least some of the players before the game.

Not sure about your state but the NFHS Officials Manual says we are to meet both coaches at the same time around the 12:00 minute mark. Soo......

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bucky

Great point. I don't know why some call it the "stop-the-clock" signal. It is a violation signal. If they get rid of the violation signal for OOB plays (like NCAAW), then they better at least eliminate it for all violations.

It is called that because it is one of three ways to actually stop the clock.

Listed that way in the signal section of the rulebook.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Just because officials at the NBA/NCAA-M/NCAA-W/FIBA level sometimes get goaltending calls wrong doesn't mean we should keep the HS rule as-is. This would create much greater continuity between rule sets on a play that happens more and more often.

But the rules we have in place at the HS level is because of the level of the officials we are working with as well. So you can change the rule, but that does not mean it is going to make the game better or different or like those other levels. To me, this is not a rule that would be making right a vast injustice in the game. It would just be a rules change that no one would understand the same way.

Originally Posted by AremRed

Again, just because NCAA-M officials are hesitant to give DoG warnings doesn't mean it would be a bad change at the HS level. HS officials put the ball down regularly, which pisses everyone off. Change it to a warning put in the book and HS officials would give that warning and everyone would be less upset overall.

I am lucky to see even this done in the first place like 2 or 3 times the entire year. My point is that it is not pissing many people off if it is not being used in the first place. Heck, it is often not encouraged to be used where I am mostly. So again the rule can change, but it will not change what is happening in the game, which is kind of my point.


Peace

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by bucky

Great point. I don't know why some call it the "stop-the-clock" signal. It is a violation signal. If they get rid of the violation signal for OOB plays (like NCAAW), then they better at least eliminate it for all violations.

Many make some good suggestions. To them add:

*) Eliminate jackets. A totally, unnecessary expense.
*) Eliminate captains meetings. A totally, unnecessary time waster.
*) Meet both coaches simultaneously. This would be a nice time saver and prohibit the chance of perceived bias/favoritism. If still have captains, have them attend this meeting too.

When the ball goes out of bounds everyone in the gym knows the ball is dead and the clock stops. Signaling "stop the clock" (yes, it is a "stop the clock for violation" signal) is pointless.

The NFHS doesn't say anything about jackets in the Rules. I don't think the Manual mentions them either. So that's your state's problem.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I get that point, but I do not think we are that strict about the coaching box in football or Restricted Area. We have many coaches on the field when they are not supposed to be. It is just more acceptable to enforce those rules if violated. We have a different cat that coaches basketball where they feel we should be doing other things. Also, keep in mind in football we have a play and then we reset. In basketball, the game is constantly going much of the time. I think that leads to a different attitude about when those rules are violated in those respective sports.

It's enforced strictly here. And if you're caught not enforcing it you'll hear about it.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by SE Minnestoa Re

I'd freeze to death before a game if I didn't have my jacket. Gyms aren't that warm in Minnesota and Wisconsin

I truly think that I am #1 when it comes to complaining about being cold. I feel freezing in the summer, let alone the winter so I understand however....

So does that mean you die at every half-time? Because jackets are not worn when coming to the court before the second half starts. And I hope that you do not say that you got warm by officiating the first half, when doing warm-ups before a game starts is prescribed by everyone.

Originally Posted by AremRed

I like the jackets. Keeps me warm in some gyms. I don't like standing out too much before games and I think it looks sharp. The cost isn't really all that much.

So you care about not standing out for a bit before the game even though you will stand out for the rest of the game, including half-time?

Originally Posted by SC Official

The NFHS doesn't say anything about jackets in the Rules. I don't think the Manual mentions them either. So that's your state's problem.

It does not say anything about officiating shirts (vertical black/white stripes, grey w/ pin stripes, etc.) either in the Rules but I bet you wear one. Maybe re-read the manual. You might find jackets mentioned there.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is called that because it is one of three ways to actually stop the clock.
Listed that way in the signal section of the rulebook.
Peace

Yes, I am aware. It is just a certain level of redundancy that discourages me. I do like your point about it giving officials a millisecond to reflect before they act.

[ilyazhito]

Perhaps, if all high school gyms had Precision Timing System equipment, then we could think about abolishing the "stop clock for violation signal". However, since that is not the case, the 3 stop clock signals are what stop the game clock, until someone will come up with a 4th approved signal to stop the clock for a timeout that is different from the stop-clock-for-violation signal.

Re: jackets, they are usually the only thing out there that can identify which association an official belongs to (jackets may have local, as well as state, identifiers on them), unless an association pays extra money to buy it's members custom shirts. So, jackets have multiple practical functions.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Perhaps, if all high school gyms had Precision Timing System equipment, then we could think about abolishing the "stop clock for violation signal". However, since that is not the case, the 3 stop clock signals are what stop the game clock, until someone will come up with a 4th approved signal to stop the clock for a timeout that is different from the stop-clock-for-violation signal.

Re: jackets, they are usually the only thing out there that can identify which association an official belongs to (jackets may have local, as well as state, identifiers on them), unless an association pays extra money to buy it's members custom shirts. So, jackets have multiple practical functions.

The WHISTLE *always* stops the clock. No hand signal needed.


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[bucky]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Re: jackets, they are usually the only thing out there that can identify which association an official belongs to (jackets may have local, as well as state, identifiers on them), unless an association pays extra money to buy it's members custom shirts. So, jackets have multiple practical functions.

I do not doubt you, at least in your area/state, but I am yet to see a jacket with a local association patch/logo on it. I see patches (association/state/US flag) on shirts.

In an odd twist however, I just received a new jacket and am planning on putting a state association patch on it.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Rich

The WHISTLE *always* stops the clock. No hand signal needed.


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When it can be heard. The hand is a backup for when it can't.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

... If all states have a shot clock, then there would not be as big of a learning curve for officials who move between states (a common sithation, because many people move for work anyway), or who try to move from high school to college ball. This is in addition to no stalling, reduced deliberate fouls, and other officiating benefits of implementing a shot clock.

It isn't officials who have a huge learning curve when it comes to the shot clock.

And I'm not sure how eliminating stalling benefits officials.