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  #46 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 12:09pm
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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
How about when a ball handler's shoe just barely touches a boundary? Or when a ball just barely touches a boundary? Or when the ball just barley touches a guy wire? Does everyone in the gymnasium, including the timekeeper, know that the ball is dead and the clock stops unless an official puts a whistle on the play? Does everyone in the gymnasium, and all timekeepers (at all levels of interscholastic basketball, maybe students in some freshman, or middle school games) know that the ball cannot legally pass over a rectangular backboard from either direction, or that the back of a backboard is out of bounds?

Does everyone in the gymnasium, and all timekeepers (at all levels of interscholastic basketball) know that when a ball handler inadvertently touches someone who is out of bounds (another player, a photographer, a coach, an official, etc.), without gaining an advantage, is not considered an out of bounds violation?

SC Official makes a good point, most out of bounds violations are pretty obvious, but we still need officials (with a whistle and hopefully a signal) to rule on some odd, or close, situations.
Then the whistle is sufficient.

Again, timers are not looking at our hand.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 12:15pm
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My response to officials who opine and nitpick about "approved" signals such as a one- or two-finger directional instead of four...

Do you give a prelim on every foul?
Do you signal a 60-second timeout with open hands instead of fists?
Do you "score the goal" as it looks on the signal chart?
Do you signal "1 and 1" with arms outstretched to the sides?
Do you signal a blocking foul with opens hands on the hips instead of fists?

I'm sure there are plenty more. Unless you can answer "yes" to every one of these questions, shut up.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 12:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
You make a good point (get the call right and who cares about this signal) but aren't you some type of teacher/clinician/instructor in your state, or local area? Do you teach proper signals (maybe referring to the manual) or do you just let the new guys free lance, or use signals that they see their partners (both good and bad) use, or see on television in college or professional games?
Forgive me, but what does my position have to do with my opinion? If I am that, I do not subscribe to the position that your signal with a certain amount of fingers is as important as you being in the right position to make a call. Or why you missed that foul or why you did not have a call when your partner was blocked? Those are bigger issues than if your thumb is tucked properly.

I also teach officials that are newer a lot. They are worried about so much because we expect them to know a lot at once. It is better to get them doing some basic things first and then later add some more detail. We have officials that cannot get their arm up to stop the clock. Why would I worry about what their hand looks like on the signal when there stop clock signal is not distinguishable between a violation or a foul?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
While there are much more important (and difficult) things for rookies to learn don't you want them to, at least, start off using the proper signals? And I'm sure that there were many officials watching you work your state final. Don't you want to set a good example for your pupils?
I want them to look like they half-way know they are doing on the court. No coach is going to care what their hands looks like if they will not even blow their whistle for the obvious foul or violation.

I remember my very first games and I could not get my hand up when I blew my whistle. So my partner and mentor who I worked several games with told me to just work on getting my arm up. Do not point, do not give a preliminary, just get my arm up and use my voice. When I was able to get my arm up, then add one thing to that sequence. When I got that sequence down, add one more thing to that sequence. It got to the point where each action would have a distinct and measured. A new official is not going to all of a sudden work high-level ball in a year or two for the most part. So they need to be doing things that help them grow, not have their minds spinning over details that no one at their level is going to expect them to master.

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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Was, "We are not robots", your response to your friend who had the courage to offer constructive criticism to such a highly respected veteran official as yourself?
The conversation was more extensive and the conversation was with a person that assigns games. I said a lot more to him and he understood my point.

If you have no noticed Billy, I am not a person that sugar coats my comments. One of the reasons I have the respect of many of my peers is I tell people what I feel will help them, not try to fit into some narrative of a book or organization that will not hire them to work any level of games. And I did not get up the latter either by doing all these very specific things that many here keep trying to act are not negotiable.

Peace
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 12:27pm
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Common Ground ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
... timers are not looking at our hand.
Fully agree. Always have.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 12:33pm
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Easy Peasy Lemon Squeezy ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Timers stop the clock when the whistle blows. They aren't looking at your hand.
Back when I was coaching middle school basketball, I would have student timekeepers and scorekeepers. Of course, I would have to teach them how to keep score, and how to keep time.

Teaching the timekeeper when to start the clock was the hard part.

Teaching the timekeeper when to stop the clock was much, much easier, keep one's finger on the button and stop the clock when you hear a whistle. End of lesson.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Apr 16, 2019 at 01:13pm.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 12:40pm
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One Step At A Time ...

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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I do not subscribe to the position that your signal with a certain amount of fingers is as important as you being in the right position to make a call ... Those are bigger issues than if your thumb is tucked properly.
Fully agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
... we expect them to know a lot at once. It is better to get them doing some basic things first and then later add some more detail.
Agree, like pointing the proper way (or a hundred other things). I taught middle school science for over thirty years, and I've served on local board committees that teach rules and teach mechanics to new officials. Teaching isn't easy. Sometimes teachers have to pick and chose what needs to be taught in a limited amount of time to a highly varied group of learners, covering some things in great detail, and glossing over others. It's a form of teaching triage.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Apr 16, 2019 at 01:14pm.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 12:46pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
My response to officials who opine and nitpick about "approved" signals such as a one- or two-finger directional instead of four...

Do you give a prelim on every foul?
Something we are asked to do heavily here, but it almost never stands out unless an official never does it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Do you signal a 60-second timeout with open hands instead of fists?
I do now, but no one said a thing to me when I didn't for some time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Do you "score the goal" as it looks on the signal chart?
Absolutely not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Do you signal "1 and 1" with arms outstretched to the sides?
Nope, I give the signal with two fingers about shoulder length. Never had anyone say a word to me about this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Do you signal a blocking foul with opens hands on the hips instead of fists?
Not on at the spot. I am not sure I give that signal at the table at all times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
I'm sure there are plenty more. Unless you can answer "yes" to every one of these questions, shut up.
I agree.

I do not say this to brag. I worked this past year the very last game of the IHSA Basketball Season. I worked the most prestigious game there is and over 4000 officials would have loved to have worked that game in my place or my partner's place for sure. I cannot recall in my over my 20 plus years more than 5 times where anyone said anything to me about any of these things and in some cases, no one ever said a word, even including camps I attended coming up for high school basketball.

The IHSA makes a training tape every few years and they use the State Finals as examples of good and bad things. The things they will highlight the most are things like positioning at the C or Trail for example. They might talk about how to rotate or when not to rotate. I am sure I will be on the tape when they make the next one for doing something wrong that is not perfect (I was able to avoid it the last two times I was working the State Finals), but I doubt me giving one finger or two is going to even be mentioned when that does happen. I am convinced they have bigger things they want us to do at least here in this state.

Peace
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 12:52pm
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Half Right ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Do you signal a blocking foul with opens hands on the hips instead of fists?
That's the tough one. Old habits die hard.

Preliminary, at the site of the foul? Not usually, especially when I want to sell the call.

To the table? Yes. All the time.

Half right? Do I have to shut up?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Apr 16, 2019 at 12:57pm.
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 12:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Rule 2-1-1: "The official's uniform shall be a black-and-white striped shirt..."

I'm not the one who wants to get rid of jackets, so why would I look it up?

Forgot about that, great catch, and I sit corrected about the shirts being mentioned.

You would look it up because you questioned its existence and tend to not take other's word for it.

Speaking of getting rid of BC 10 second visible count, I would like to see the FT 10 second wrist flick go away. Seems pointless and if the argument is so that people can see you counting, then add the same for 3 seconds violation. Don't care which way, just pick one and be consistent. Either we visibly count everything or do not visibly count anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
BTW, the "open hand" signal is not just for violations, it is for all stoppages of clock that do not involve a foul or a held ball. IJS.
Correct but isn't the whistle being blown during those times too? So, no need for hand signal in those cases. Agree?
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Last edited by bucky; Tue Apr 16, 2019 at 12:59pm.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 01:06pm
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Priorities ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
The IHSA makes a training tape every few years and they use the State Finals as examples of good and bad things. The things they will highlight the most are things like positioning at the C or Trail for example. They might talk about how to rotate or when not to rotate. I am convinced they have bigger things they want us to do at least here in this state.
IAABO International weekly emails us a Play of the Week during the season. They always ask three questions. Was the call correct? Were the officials in the proper position to make the call? Were the signals correct?

These three questions seem to asked (and later answered) in priority order. Proper signals are important, but not as important as making the correct call and being in the right position to make a correct call.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Apr 16, 2019 at 01:16pm.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 01:25pm
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Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Once again you think I need a lecture on what the rules and mechanics are. I don't.

What the rule says =/= What actually happens

Timers stop the clock when the whistle blows. They aren't looking at your hand. Hate to break it to you.
I am not giving a lecture. I am just showing that the things that you consider irrelevant are actually being emphasized by the powers-that-be in NCAA Men's basketball, and are actually being done in practice. I gave you the example of officials reminding timers to "watch my hand" in last-minute situationsthat I have actually observed, as an example of why the stop-clock signal is needed in real life.

I also wanted to clarify what you said about the 10-second count to make it clear what the actual NCAAM (and NCAAW) rule is, and why I would support a change of the NFHS backcourt rules (10-second count and crossing the division line) to its NCAAM counterpart.
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 01:39pm
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Chop To Start The Clock Signal ...

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Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
... officials reminding timers to "watch my hand" in last-minute situations that I have actually observed, as an example of why the stop-clock signal is needed in real life.
Almost forty years of officiating high school basketball, I have never heard of any official ever reminding timekeepers to watch for a stop clock signal near the end of a very close game. Never. Ever.

I have heard (and actually did it many times) of officials reminding timekeepers to watch for a chop to start the clock signal near the end of a very close game.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Apr 16, 2019 at 02:51pm.
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 01:48pm
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Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
I am not giving a lecture. I am just showing that the things that you consider irrelevant are actually being emphasized by the powers-that-be in NCAA Men's basketball, and are actually being done in practice. I gave you the example of officials reminding timers to "watch my hand" in last-minute situationsthat I have actually observed, as an example of why the stop-clock signal is needed in real life.

I also wanted to clarify what you said about the 10-second count to make it clear what the actual NCAAM (and NCAAW) rule is, and why I would support a change of the NFHS backcourt rules (10-second count and crossing the division line) to its NCAAM counterpart.
That is lovely that JD Collins wants NCAA-M officials stopping the clock. That doesn't mean I have to agree with it. Because I can assure you for every JD Collins there is someone who thinks it's pointless, including many that work NCAA-M. I know you think everything done and emphasized at the higher levels is sacrosanct, but it's not. Sorry.
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 02:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Almost forty years of officiating high school basketball, I have never heard of any official ever reminding timekeepers to watch for a stop time signal near the end of a very close game. Never. Ever.

I have heard (and actually did it many times) of officials reminding timekeepers to watch for a chop to start the clock signal near the end of a very close game.
I have had timers say they couldn't hear the whistle over a crowd (and my whistle is not quiet) and saw the hand go up and stopped it once they saw that....but it was a little later.
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 16, 2019, 02:46pm
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Originally Posted by bucky View Post
Correct but isn't the whistle being blown during those times too? So, no need for hand signal in those cases. Agree?
All a matter of opinion. All sports have signals that officials do that some feel we should not do or are not necessary. It is all a matter of what you value. I just thinking the pointing is not an end all be all solution to something that in many cases cannot be heard. Just for the record, often in replay at the NCAA level, they use the official's signal as the gauge for when the whistle was blown, because you cannot often hear the actual whistle on the audio.

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