Adminstrative techncial question

[sj]

A20 dunks the ball and then clearly taunts B30 and the Lead calls a technical foul on A20. As he's walking to the table to report he is in front of Team A's bench when A33 directs a disrespectful comment towards the official which results in a technical on A33. As the official is reporting at the table the scorer informs him that there is no A33 in the book.

4 shots and the ball for B and an indirect on the head coach. Do you also give an administrative technical for A33 not being in the book?

[SC Official]

Why wouldn't you?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by sj

A20 dunks the ball and then clearly taunts B30 and the Lead calls a technical foul on A20. As he's walking to the table to report he is in front of Team A's bench when A33 directs a disrespectful comment towards the official which results in a technical on A33. As the official is reporting at the table the scorer informs him that there is no A33 in the book.

4 shots and the ball for B and an indirect on the head coach. Do you also give an administrative technical for A33 not being in the book?

I am assuming A33 is on the bench and not in the game correct? If that is the case then my answer is based on the fact that A33 was bench personnel at the time of that technical foul.

I would say yes if they are adding that player to the list to play. If they do not ever play that player, then I would say no they do not get the technical foul for administrative purposes. They are still bench personnel because a team's manager can be on the bench. But if they are never put them in the game, then I do not see how you give them a T for them not being in the book.

Peace

[sj]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Why wouldn't you?

What Rut says.

[sj]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am assuming A33 is on the bench and not in the game correct? If that is the case then my answer is based on the fact that A33 was bench personnel at the time of that technical foul.

I would say yes if they are adding that player to the list to play. If they do not ever play that player, then I would say no they do not get the technical foul for administrative purposes. They are still bench personnel because a team's manager can be on the bench. But if they are never put them in the game, then I do not see how you give them a T for them not being in the book.

Peace

That's what we went with. Was just wondering if there was something else to consider. He never reported to the table and hadn't played so the reasons for a technical given the case 3.2.2.C didn't apply. It's immaterial but apparently he was hurt and wasn't going to play.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Why wouldn't you?

Depending on the circumstances, you could argue that that this is just a bench technical (like on a manager, asst. coach, or injured player sitting on the bench but not in the book).

It's an interesting question since the rule book uses the term "require" a change. But who is requiring it -- the official or the coach?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by sj

That's what we went with. Was just wondering if there was something else to consider. He never reported to the table and hadn't played so the reasons for a technical given the case 3.2.2.C didn't apply. It's immaterial but apparently he was hurt and wasn't going to play.

I had to look up the rule to make sure that only a T was for them being added to the book. When they come into the game they would have to be added to the book. If they stay on the bench they do not have to be added to the book. So I would only give a T if they play and tell that to the coach and the scorekeeper. It is semantics on many levels, but do not complicate the issue if you do not have to.

Peace

[SC Official]

I guess my question would be why is this individual in uniform if he's not going to become a player under any circumstances? If he's just going to be regular bench personnel that night then he shouldn't be wearing a uniform implying that he's a team member required to be listed in the book.

[sj]

Originally Posted by SC Official

I guess my question would be why is this individual in uniform if he's not going to become a player under any circumstances? If he's just going to be regular bench personnel that night then he shouldn't be wearing a uniform implying that he's a team member required to be listed in the book.

Looking at definitions I would say that while he meets the definition for being bench personnel he doesn't meet the definition for being a team member. A team member is bench personnel who is in uniform and is "eligible to become a player." Since he's not in the book he's not eligible to become a player at the point all this occurred. As Rut says it might be semantics but that's a take on it anyways.

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by sj

Looking at definitions I would say that while he meets the definition for being bench personnel he doesn't meet the definition for being a team member. A team member is bench personnel who is in uniform and is "eligible to become a player." Since he's not in the book he's not eligible to become a player at the point all this occurred. As Rut says it might be semantics but that's a take on it anyways.

I think he's still eligible to become a player, just at the expense of a technical foul.

So in this scenario, in the actual scorebook, you would count this as indirect toward the coach and that's it, correct? The thing to remember is that if they decide later to play that kid, obviously they'll get the admin tech, but also the bench technical should now be changed to a direct technical on that player, count toward his 5 for disqualification, and then remain as indirect to the HC (does that sound right? After my dumb 10 minute question I suddenly feel very gunshy!)

[bucky]

I do not care for these types of things. A player/person on the bench, with the full intent of being eligible to play, can get a technical foul. If that person is not in the book, how does one record the technical foul? To me, if it is recorded on A3 then A3 needs to be added to the book, for the very least, statistical/record keeping purposes. Now maybe, when this occurs , there should be no administrative technical. Just does not seem right, from a scorekeeper perspective. What is the same bench person gets another one? How do you record ejecting someone that is not even listed in the book? Something is not right.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bucky

I do not care for these types of things. A player/person on the bench, with the full intent of being eligible to play, can get a technical foul. If that person is not in the book, how does one record the technical foul? To me, if it is recorded on A3 then A3 needs to be added to the book, for the very least, statistical/record keeping purposes.

How do you give a technical foul to a coach or manager? Are they listed in the book anywhere? I just did a game last week with a girl on the bench that was their scorekeeper. If someone on the crew gave her a technical foul, she was clearly not in the book (wrong gender to play) and she was sitting squarely in the middle of the bench. I point this out because she got hit in the head with an errant pass and looked like she had a concussion. We would not go through the same procedures for her being there on the bench. So if she got froggy and got a T, I think we can record that in the book appropriately.

Originally Posted by bucky

Now maybe, when this occurs , there should be no administrative technical. Just does not seem right, from a scorekeeper perspective. What is the same bench person gets another one? How do you record ejecting someone that is not even listed in the book? Something is not right.

The same person has to be removed from the game. And in the case I gave, that person is not a player and can be removed like any other person that is not a player.

Peace

[sj]

Originally Posted by bucky

I do not care for these types of things. A player/person on the bench, with the full intent of being eligible to play, can get a technical foul. If that person is not in the book, how does one record the technical foul? To me, if it is recorded on A3 then A3 needs to be added to the book, for the very least, statistical/record keeping purposes. Now maybe, when this occurs , there should be no administrative technical. Just does not seem right, from a scorekeeper perspective. What is the same bench person gets another one? How do you record ejecting someone that is not even listed in the book? Something is not right.

You bring up a good point. For 10-5 - Bench Technicals in the Penalty section it says that the foul is charged "to the offender." Well let's say the offender is the manager. We're not going to add the managers name to the book but rather we'll just have them record it as a footnote. Since by definitions both a non-listed A33 and the manager are both bench personnel it seems you would treat them the same. Which is what we did and just made a footnote noting the technical on A33. And not charging them administratively. jmo

[just another ref]

As far as I can see, he does meet the definition of a team member. So as far as I can see, when A33 gets a technical foul it should be charged to A33, which requires him to be added to the book, which calls for another technical foul.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

How do you give a technical foul to a coach or manager? Are they listed in the book anywhere? I just did a game last week with a girl on the bench that was their scorekeeper. If someone on the crew gave her a technical foul, she was clearly not in the book (wrong gender to play) and she was sitting squarely in the middle of the bench. I point this out because she got hit in the head with an errant pass and looked like she had a concussion. We would not go through the same procedures for her being there on the bench. So if she got froggy and got a T, I think we can record that in the book appropriately.



The same person has to be removed from the game. And in the case I gave, that person is not a player and can be removed like any other person that is not a player.

Peace

I see what you are saying however...

Coaches are listed in the book, at least in my area. never seen a book without one listed. As far as a manager, I am not worries as they will not be entering the game. Nor will a scorekeeper. My point was regarding a standard player, with which we are all familiar. They are dressed like their teammates, warmed up with them, and even played in several previous games...you know, a standard player. If that player got a T, then it must be recorded some place. If they got another T, they would be ejected an unable to play the next game (at least in our area). So it would not be like removing any other person. This is a very specific team member, for which the coach simply forgot to add their name/number to the book.

The footnote idea would work but it seems too generic and unofficial. It just seems odd to footnote a player's number that was never even listed. What if the coach refuses to give his name? Now the recorded number is irrelevant as the coach could just give him a different jersey number the next game. My point is that this situation should be addressed more formally.

Not arguing, just saying that there should be a better, as written by rule, way to handle it.