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Old Tue Mar 27, 2007, 04:12pm
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two questions - start of half question and free throw question

Let me preface this with the statement that I am not a referee but am interested in getting in the business and have been very involved in basketball for many years.

Situation 1
Half time of a travel game. team A is on defense and only 4 players take the floor. The 5th girl sitting on the bench that is supposed to be in the game suddenly realizes it and runs onto the floor. What is the proper call?


Situation 2

Ref calls a shooting foul and awards player 2 shots. After first shot players go for rebound and play begins. As game proceeds coaches from shooters team ask why only one shot awarded and ref responds that original shot went in. Coach calls time out to stop game and with official scorer explains that no basket scored. What should happen now?

Both situations happened as explained.
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Old Tue Mar 27, 2007, 04:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoopguy
Let me preface this with the statement that I am not a referee but am interested in getting in the business and have been very involved in basketball for many years.

Situation 1
Half time of a travel game. team A is on defense and only 4 players take the floor. The 5th girl sitting on the bench that is supposed to be in the game suddenly realizes it and runs onto the floor. What is the proper call?
I would go with a team technical foul.

RULE 10
SECTION 1 TEAM TECHNICAL
A team shall not:
Art. 9 . . . Fail to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission.


It might be possible to charge the individual player with a technical foul under the following Case Book play, but I believe that the above rule is a better fit to the situation.

10.3.3 SITUATION B: After a lengthy substitution process involving multiple substitutions for both Team A and Team B, A5 goes to the bench and remains there, believing he/she has been replaced. The ball is put in play even though Team A has only four players on the court. Team A is bringing the ball into A's frontcourt when the coach of Team A realizes they have only four players. The coach yells for A5 to return and A5 sprints directly onto the court without reporting or without being beckoned. RULING: A technical foul is charged to A5 for returning during playing action even though A5 had not been replaced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoopguy
Situation 2

Ref calls a shooting foul and awards player 2 shots. After first shot players go for rebound and play begins. As game proceeds coaches from shooters team ask why only one shot awarded and ref responds that original shot went in. Coach calls time out to stop game and with official scorer explains that no basket scored. What should happen now?

Both situations happened as explained.
This is a correctable error for failure to award a merited FT. If the error was recognized in the proper time frame, then the FT would be awarded with the lane empty and the game would resume from the Point of Interruption.

RULE 2
SECTION 10 CORRECTABLE ERRORS
ART. 1 . . . Officials may correct an error if a rule is inadvertently set aside and results in:
a. Failure to award a merited free throw.
b. Awarding an unmerited free throw.
c. Permitting a wrong player to attempt a free throw.
d. Attempting a free throw at the wrong basket.
e. Erroneously counting or canceling a score.
ART. 2 . . . In order to correct any of the officials' errors listed in Article 1, such error must be recognized by an official no later than during the first dead ball after the clock has properly started.

ART. 3 . . . If in Article 1e the error is made while the clock is running and the ball dead, it must be recognized by an official before the second live ball.
ART. 4 . . . If the error is a free throw by the wrong player or at the wrong
basket, or the awarding of an unmerited free throw, the free throw and the activity during it, other than unsporting, flagrant, intentional or technical fouls, shall be canceled.
ART. 5 . . . Points scored, consumed time and additional activity, which may occur prior to the recognition of an error, shall not be nullified. Errors because of free-throw attempts by the wrong player or at the wrong basket shall be corrected by applying 8-1 and 2.

ART. 6 . . . If an error is corrected, play shall be resumed from the point of interruption to rectify the error, unless it involves awarding a merited free throw(s) and there has been no change of team possession since the error was made, in which case play shall resume as after any free-throw attempt(s).
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Old Tue Mar 27, 2007, 04:43pm
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thanks

great answer.

The first situation occurred exactly as you explaind with the ref basically quoting 10.3.3 SITUATION B

Second situation was much more confusing. Eventually, the player was awarded the one free throw and this was done as a second free throw attempt with players lined up and going for the rebound.

To clarify, in the second situation, the game played for aprox. one minute because the coaches asked the ref why no second free throw on the fly as the game was progressing and he answered while the game was in progress. Once that happened the time out was called to stop the game. Would that be considered 'proper time frame'?


Thanks for the help. I learn a lot reading this board.
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Old Tue Mar 27, 2007, 05:00pm
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Well then if that is the ruling that was used in your first situation, the official would have had to charge that individual player with a foul which counts towards one of her five for disqualification. Using the other rule that I provided would only saddle the team with one team foul and no one else with anything. So not only do I think that rule is more specific for the situation, but it is also a more fair penalty.

As for you second question about the proper time frame to correct the error, it does not matter how much time comes off the game clock or how much real time has passed. The proper window is measured in the number of live and dead balls that have occurred. This is detailed in 2-10-2 that I posted above.

So once the clock started when the missed FT was rebounded, the error of not awarding the second FT would have to be recognized during the next dead ball. If that dead ball were permitted to become live again, then it is too late to go back and fix this. Note that the scoring of a goal results in a dead ball. So if either team scored a basket during the subsequent play before the error was recognized, then once the throw-in started it was too late to fix the error.

Lastly, the players would only be permitted on the lane and the game continued from the result of the second FT, as you stated it was, if the shooting team had rebounded the miss and maintained possession without any dead balls taking place until the recognition of the error, otherwise the POI should have been used. That is what 2-10-6 says. Given the amount of playing time you say took place, it is highly likely that the official administered this incorrectly.

Last edited by Nevadaref; Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 05:06pm.
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Old Wed Mar 28, 2007, 03:09am
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There seems to be something missing from the second situation. My interpretation is that the calling official didn't count the basket on the original shot attempt (either because the ball didn't go in or he didn't see it, doesn't matter), thus he awarded two FT's. The other official (administering) only awarded one FT because he thought the original shot was good.

This does not change Nevada's correct reply as to how to handle this in terms of being a correctable error, if indeed the basket was no good and thus we have a failure to award a merited FT.

The question that I have though is what do we do if the adminstering official that thought the basket was good is right. This doesn't seem to fall under the correctable error rule unless you count it as "erroneously canceling a score" and its certainly not a "failure to award a merited FT" (or is it, if the basket isn't counted). What kind of error is this and how do we handle it? Is it one of those oops we kicked it, but since we didn't count the basket, we can go back and award the FT?
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Old Wed Mar 28, 2007, 03:59am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoomerSooner
The question that I have though is what do we do if the adminstering official that thought the basket was good is right. This doesn't seem to fall under the correctable error rule unless you count it as "erroneously canceling a score" and its certainly not a "failure to award a merited FT" (or is it, if the basket isn't counted). What kind of error is this and how do we handle it? Is it one of those oops we kicked it, but since we didn't count the basket, we can go back and award the FT?
It is a CE and that's the reason.
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Old Wed Mar 28, 2007, 11:12pm
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Thanks, Nevada

I just wasn't sure if I was being over-analytical because the score was never actually counted in the first place, so I wasn't sure if it could still be considered "canceling an erroneously awarded score". Nonetheless, in such a situation, I would have ruled the same way. Probably me being overly obsessed with semantics.
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