Throw-in hits basket

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigCat

After ball legally touched ...

Legally touched? After a violation (later reversed), a dead ball, and a whistle?

Isn't the inadvertent whistle for the ball hitting the ring the point of interruption, not something that happens after the inadvertent whistle (touch inbounds, player control, team control, etc.)?

Point Of Interruption: Method of resuming play due to an official's inadvertent whistle,
ART. 2 Play shall be resumed by one of the following methods:
a. A throw-in to the team that was in control at an out-of-bounds spot
nearest to where the ball was located when the interruption occurred.
b. A free throw or a throw-in when the interruption occurred during
this activity or if a team is entitled to such.

There was no team in control (team control during a throwin only applies when a member of the throwin team fouls) when the ball hit the ring, and the ball had not yet been touched, nor possessed (controlled), by another player when the ball hit the ring.

Nobody had player control and/or team control and nobody had touched and/or possessed the ball (after throwin release) before the violation (later reversed), dead ball, and inadvertent whistle when the ball hit the ring.

Since the ball was dead, wouldn't the only things that may have mattered after the violation (later reversed), dead ball, and inadvertent whistle when the ball hit the ring be intentional and/or flagrant fouls?

Player control, team control, ball touched, etc., should be ignored because they all came after the ball became dead.

If a player caught the ball after it hit the ring and made a layup would you count the basket?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigCat

... it rebounds to players hands, then whistle ...

I think that I see the problem. In my opinion the ball is already dead when the whistle is sounded, dead in error, but it's still dead.

Basketball Rules Fundamentals 16. The official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead).

7-7 The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:
ART. 5 An official’s whistle is blown
ART. 9 A violation, as in 9-2 through 13, occurs

Are you saying that it was the whistle that caused the ball to became dead, not the violation because the violation was called in error?

If so, that's an interesting take.

I'd like to see some more discussion regarding such.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Legally touched? After a violation (later reversed), a dead ball, and a whistle?

Isn't the inadvertent whistle for the ball hitting the ring the point of interruption, not something that happens after the inadvertent whistle (touch inbounds, player control, team control, etc.)?

Point Of Interruption: Method of resuming play due to an official's inadvertent whistle,
ART. 2 Play shall be resumed by one of the following methods:
a. A throw-in to the team that was in control at an out-of-bounds spot
nearest to where the ball was located when the interruption occurred.
b. A free throw or a throw-in when the interruption occurred during
this activity or if a team is entitled to such.

There was no team in control (team control during a throwin only applies when a member of the throwin team fouls) when the ball hit the ring, and the ball had not yet been touched, nor possessed (controlled), by another player when the ball hit the ring.

Nobody had player control and/or team control and nobody had touched and/or possessed the ball (after throwin release) before the violation (later reversed), dead ball, and inadvertent whistle when the ball hit the ring.

Since the ball was dead, wouldn't the only things that may have mattered after the violation (later reversed), dead ball, and inadvertent whistle when the ball hit the ring be intentional and/or flagrant fouls?

Player control, team control, ball touched, etc., should be ignored because they all came after the ball became dead.

If a player caught the ball after it hit the ring and made a layup would you count the basket?

The “inadvertent whistle” is the inadvertent whistle. The whistle makes the ball dead in this play. In Altor’s first example no one had touched the ball. Thus the throw in had not legally ended and the POI rule says team A gets another throw in.
The second example has the ball hitting the underside of the rim, immediately deflecting off a player inbounds. Then the whistle. Again the “IW” is the IW. At that moment no team has control inbounds. I know what you are thinking...the reason you blew the whistle was because you thought ball hitting underside of rim was violation. So should you determine the situation from that moment in time? I would tell you no..because you haven’t “interrupted” the game yet under the rules.
As to your question, if a player caught the ball and made a layup..would I count the basket? Absolutely...1. Because I know hitting underside of ring is nothing. 2. If for some reason I thought it was a problem but didn’t interrupt the game until after the layup...the rules require it....The End.

[Altor]

Keep in mind we are now talking about the timing of the whistle. Because of the odd and unexpected occurrence (throw-in hitting the rim), the whistle was not immediate. The official in the OP took a moment to process what he saw and then made a bad decision to stop play. The POI is determined by the status of the ball when the IW occurred, not when the ball hit the rim.

[Altor]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Basketball Rules Fundamentals 16. The official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead).

And the IW is one of those "seldom causes".

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Altor

Keep in mind we are now talking about the timing of the whistle.

I get it. Not sure I agree, but I get the logic and the rule language behind it.

Because it's not a real violation, the "violation" doesn't cause the ball to became dead, it's the inadvertent whistle that causes the ball to become dead and the whistle may be slightly delayed (as it always is).

I would like to see further discussion before I change my mind, especially the part about counting the basket (after the ring hit but also after the sound of the whistle).

If everybody's going to count that basket, then I better think about backing up the truck and moving in another direction.

Good discussion guys. I can certainly see your logic.

Maybe Basketball Rules Fundamental 16 isn't as clear as I once believed.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Because it's not a real violation, the "violation" doesn't cause the ball to became dead, it's the inadvertent whistle that causes the ball to become dead and the whistle may be slightly delayed (as it always is).

If a violation falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, is it still a dead ball?

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I get it. Not sure I agree, but I get the logic and the rule language behind it.

Because it's not a real violation, the "violation" doesn't cause the ball to became dead, it's the inadvertent whistle that causes the ball to become dead and the whistle may be slightly delayed (as it always is).

I would like to see further discussion before I change my mind, especially the part about counting the basket (after the ring hit but also after the sound of the whistle).

If everybody's going to count that basket, then I better think about backing up the truck and moving in another direction.

Good discussion guys. I can certainly see your logic.

Maybe Basketball Rules Fundamental 16 isn't as clear as I once believed.

Again, it depends on the status of the ball when the inadvertent whistle occurs. If the IW occurs after the defender gained possession, his team gets the ball because they had team control. If the player was in the act of shooting but the ball was not released-same result. If the try was released and then the IW occurs we use the arrow if the try was unsuccessful. If the try was good the basket counts and play resumes from there. See 7.5.3

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by billyu2

Again, it depends on the status of the ball when the inadvertent whistle occurs.

Another vote for dead ball at the whistle rather than the violation (error).

7.5.3 SITUATION: An official sounds his/her whistle inadvertently: (a) while A1 is dribbling and in player control;(b) while the pass is in flight from A1 (in A’s backcourt) to
A2 (in A’s frontcourt); (c) while A1's unsuccessful three-point try attempt is in flight; or (d) while A’s successful try attempt is in flight. RULING: The ball is put in play at the point of interruption. In (a), Team A is awarded a throw-in at the nearest out-of-bounds spot to where the ball was when the whistle was inadvertently sounded. In (b), since the ball is being passed among teammates and is in flight, it retains the same location as when it was last in contact with A1 in Team A’s backcourt. Therefore, Team A is awarded a throw-in at the nearest out-of-bounds spot to where A1 was when the whistle was sounded. In (c) and (d), the ball does not become dead until the try ends. In (c), since there is no team control when the ball becomes dead, the ball is put in play by the team entitled to the throw-in using the alternating-possession procedure at a spot nearest to where A1 was last in contact with ball when the whistle was sounded. In (d), since a goal has been scored by Team A, the ball is given to Team B for a throw-in anywhere along the end line. (7-4-4; 4-4-3; 4-12-3,6; 4-36)

Nice citation billyu2. Thanks.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

How do I know? I kicked it my first year.

Wow. Shatters the image I've accumulated...