Throw-in hits basket

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Altor

And if the ball bounded directly into somebody's hands rather than not being touched, the POI would be a throw-in for the team with possession at the time of the IW.

Is this incorrect, correct would be to have a throwin do-over?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Altor

And if the ball bounded directly into somebody's hands rather than not being touched, the POI would be a throw-in for the team with possession at the time of the IW.

Good job everybody. Gold stars all around.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Is this incorrect, correct would be to have a throwin do-over?

What was the status of the ball at the time of the IW? Start there for every question you have about this subject.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

What was the status of the ball at the time of the IW?

A few minutes ago I would have thought it had everything to do with team control, or lack of team control. Now I know that that is not true regarding free throws, or throwins.

[Altor]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Is this incorrect, correct would be to have a throwin do-over?

I knew I shouldn't have put that in there. Bad move on my part and just added confusion. I did it because I was originally going to make this point and decided to be more pithy:

If the inadvertent whistle from the OP occurred
a) before any player touched the throw-in, the POI is a throw-in for Team A.
b) after a player touched the throw-in in bounds but before any player controlled the ball, the POI is the arrow
c) after a player controlled the ball, the POI is a throw-in for the team in control.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Altor

If the inadvertent whistle from the OP occurred
a) before any player touched the throw-in, the POI is a throw-in for Team A.
b) after a player touched the throw-in in bounds but before any player controlled the ball, the POI is the arrow
c) after a player controlled the ball, the POI is a throw-in for the team in control.

I'm thinking that they're all throwins for Team A, but I've already been wrong in this thread, so could someone please confirm?

4-36: Point Of Interruption
ART. 1 Method of resuming play due to an official's inadvertent
whistle, an interrupted game, as in 5-4-3, a correctable error, as in 2-10-6,
a double personal, double technical or simultaneous foul, as in 4-19-8 and
4-19-10.
ART. 2 Play shall be resumed by one of the following methods:
a. A throw-in to the team that was in control at an out-of-bounds spot
nearest to where the ball was located when the interruption occurred.
b. A free throw or a throw-in when the interruption occurred during
this activity or if a team is entitled to such.
c. A jump ball or alternating-possession throw-in when neither team
is in control and no goal, infraction, nor end of quarter/extra period is
involved when the game is interrupted.
ART. 3 When the ball remains live after a violation or foul (as in 4-19-
8) during a try for goal, the point of interruption is determined to be when
the ball becomes dead following the violation or foul.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I'm thinking that they're all throwins for Team A, but I've already been wrong in this thread, so could someone please confirm?

4-36: Point Of Interruption
ART. 1 Method of resuming play due to an official's inadvertent
whistle, an interrupted game, as in 5-4-3, a correctable error, as in 2-10-6,
a double personal, double technical or simultaneous foul, as in 4-19-8 and
4-19-10.
ART. 2 Play shall be resumed by one of the following methods:
a. A throw-in to the team that was in control at an out-of-bounds spot
nearest to where the ball was located when the interruption occurred.
b. A free throw or a throw-in when the interruption occurred during
this activity or if a team is entitled to such.
c. A jump ball or alternating-possession throw-in when neither team
is in control and no goal, infraction, nor end of quarter/extra period is
involved when the game is interrupted.
ART. 3 When the ball remains live after a violation or foul (as in 4-19-
8) during a try for goal, the point of interruption is determined to be when
the ball becomes dead following the violation or foul.

Billy, it is exactly as Altor laid it out in post 28. IW, double foul...Before throwin legally touched then back to A. After ball legally touched but not controlled by player then arrow.(HE didn’t tell us who arrow was favoring so I do t know if A gets it) If it Rebounds to players hands, then whistle....Throwin is over and a team is in control. Whatever team that is gets the ball. If you have other qs plz pm me. I’ll try to explain more but I don’t think this is helpful...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigCat

After ball legally touched ...

Legally touched? After a violation (later reversed), a dead ball, and a whistle?

Isn't the inadvertent whistle for the ball hitting the ring the point of interruption, not something that happens after the inadvertent whistle (touch inbounds, player control, team control, etc.)?

Point Of Interruption: Method of resuming play due to an official's inadvertent whistle,
ART. 2 Play shall be resumed by one of the following methods:
a. A throw-in to the team that was in control at an out-of-bounds spot
nearest to where the ball was located when the interruption occurred.
b. A free throw or a throw-in when the interruption occurred during
this activity or if a team is entitled to such.

There was no team in control (team control during a throwin only applies when a member of the throwin team fouls) when the ball hit the ring, and the ball had not yet been touched, nor possessed (controlled), by another player when the ball hit the ring.

Nobody had player control and/or team control and nobody had touched and/or possessed the ball (after throwin release) before the violation (later reversed), dead ball, and inadvertent whistle when the ball hit the ring.

Since the ball was dead, wouldn't the only things that may have mattered after the violation (later reversed), dead ball, and inadvertent whistle when the ball hit the ring be intentional and/or flagrant fouls?

Player control, team control, ball touched, etc., should be ignored because they all came after the ball became dead.

If a player caught the ball after it hit the ring and made a layup would you count the basket?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Legally touched? After a violation (later reversed), a dead ball, and a whistle?

Isn't the inadvertent whistle for the ball hitting the ring the point of interruption, not something that happens after the inadvertent whistle (touch inbounds, player control, team control, etc.)?

Point Of Interruption: Method of resuming play due to an official's inadvertent whistle,
ART. 2 Play shall be resumed by one of the following methods:
a. A throw-in to the team that was in control at an out-of-bounds spot
nearest to where the ball was located when the interruption occurred.
b. A free throw or a throw-in when the interruption occurred during
this activity or if a team is entitled to such.

There was no team in control (team control during a throwin only applies when a member of the throwin team fouls) when the ball hit the ring, and the ball had not yet been touched, nor possessed (controlled), by another player when the ball hit the ring.

Nobody had player control and/or team control and nobody had touched and/or possessed the ball (after throwin release) before the violation (later reversed), dead ball, and inadvertent whistle when the ball hit the ring.

Since the ball was dead, wouldn't the only things that may have mattered after the violation (later reversed), dead ball, and inadvertent whistle when the ball hit the ring be intentional and/or flagrant fouls?

Player control, team control, ball touched, etc., should be ignored because they all came after the ball became dead.

If a player caught the ball after it hit the ring and made a layup would you count the basket?

The “inadvertent whistle” is the inadvertent whistle. The whistle makes the ball dead in this play. In Altor’s first example no one had touched the ball. Thus the throw in had not legally ended and the POI rule says team A gets another throw in.
The second example has the ball hitting the underside of the rim, immediately deflecting off a player inbounds. Then the whistle. Again the “IW” is the IW. At that moment no team has control inbounds. I know what you are thinking...the reason you blew the whistle was because you thought ball hitting underside of rim was violation. So should you determine the situation from that moment in time? I would tell you no..because you haven’t “interrupted” the game yet under the rules.
As to your question, if a player caught the ball and made a layup..would I count the basket? Absolutely...1. Because I know hitting underside of ring is nothing. 2. If for some reason I thought it was a problem but didn’t interrupt the game until after the layup...the rules require it....The End.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigCat

... it rebounds to players hands, then whistle ...

I think that I see the problem. In my opinion the ball is already dead when the whistle is sounded, dead in error, but it's still dead.

Basketball Rules Fundamentals 16. The official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead).

7-7 The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:
ART. 5 An official’s whistle is blown
ART. 9 A violation, as in 9-2 through 13, occurs

Are you saying that it was the whistle that caused the ball to became dead, not the violation because the violation was called in error?

If so, that's an interesting take.

I'd like to see some more discussion regarding such.

[Altor]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Basketball Rules Fundamentals 16. The official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead).

And the IW is one of those "seldom causes".

[Altor]

Keep in mind we are now talking about the timing of the whistle. Because of the odd and unexpected occurrence (throw-in hitting the rim), the whistle was not immediate. The official in the OP took a moment to process what he saw and then made a bad decision to stop play. The POI is determined by the status of the ball when the IW occurred, not when the ball hit the rim.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Altor

Keep in mind we are now talking about the timing of the whistle.

I get it. Not sure I agree, but I get the logic and the rule language behind it.

Because it's not a real violation, the "violation" doesn't cause the ball to became dead, it's the inadvertent whistle that causes the ball to become dead and the whistle may be slightly delayed (as it always is).

I would like to see further discussion before I change my mind, especially the part about counting the basket (after the ring hit but also after the sound of the whistle).

If everybody's going to count that basket, then I better think about backing up the truck and moving in another direction.

Good discussion guys. I can certainly see your logic.

Maybe Basketball Rules Fundamental 16 isn't as clear as I once believed.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Because it's not a real violation, the "violation" doesn't cause the ball to became dead, it's the inadvertent whistle that causes the ball to become dead and the whistle may be slightly delayed (as it always is).

If a violation falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, is it still a dead ball?

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I get it. Not sure I agree, but I get the logic and the rule language behind it.

Because it's not a real violation, the "violation" doesn't cause the ball to became dead, it's the inadvertent whistle that causes the ball to become dead and the whistle may be slightly delayed (as it always is).

I would like to see further discussion before I change my mind, especially the part about counting the basket (after the ring hit but also after the sound of the whistle).

If everybody's going to count that basket, then I better think about backing up the truck and moving in another direction.

Good discussion guys. I can certainly see your logic.

Maybe Basketball Rules Fundamental 16 isn't as clear as I once believed.

Again, it depends on the status of the ball when the inadvertent whistle occurs. If the IW occurs after the defender gained possession, his team gets the ball because they had team control. If the player was in the act of shooting but the ball was not released-same result. If the try was released and then the IW occurs we use the arrow if the try was unsuccessful. If the try was good the basket counts and play resumes from there. See 7.5.3