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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 10, 2018, 08:06am
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Don't wanna get got.

As a fan and official one of my least favorite parts of the game is offensive players who aren't trying to play basketball but rather garner foul calls. Kids who kick their legs out when the shoot, running into everyone they can on the way to hoop trying to hear a whistle and throw up a potential and 1 and trip the foul line . . .basically everything James Harden does everytime any sticks an arm near a ball screen he's trying to use.

IN FIBA, we don't have the automatic hand checking and freedom of play rules in NFHS. So we get more liberty in making judgements. I do work in Maine some over the summers and will again this summer.

If the defense isn't holding or handchecking but is reaching for the ball or just moving arms to garner momentum defensively, and the offense chooses attack into the defense's body while they arm is there, how generous are you in allowing the defense a chance to get the arm out and off. I'm not talking about d trying to hold space with an arm bar but rather a player who's gotten arm trapped between himself and offense?
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Old Tue Apr 10, 2018, 08:47am
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I'm not quite sure I understand the question, and I sure don't get the picture you are trying to create, but:

1) a collapsed arm bar isn't an automatic foul

2) it's a foul for the defense to *place* (note who is doing the action) a hand continuously ... on the offense
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 10, 2018, 09:07am
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You can't use your arms to impede a ball-handler. Those defenders are sticking their arms out in from of themselves. No different to me than when a post player sticks his arms/elbows outside their cylinder and a defender runs into it trying to get around.
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Old Tue Apr 10, 2018, 09:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
I'm not quite sure I understand the question, and I sure don't get the picture you are trying to create, but:

1) a collapsed arm bar isn't an automatic foul

2) it's a foul for the defense to *place* (note who is doing the action) a hand continuously ... on the offense
Sorry for the confusion.

Lets talk about your number 2. Assume there has been touch or tag on the close out (first touch by defense) and while gapping the ball carrier arms up and active, the ball carrier drops shoulder and attacks hard. In moving to respond the defenses arm/hand/ elbow etc ends up in the space between their bodies or torsos as the offense continues to try to attack forward. Obviously the d didn't try to "touch" the ball carrier, but touching is going on and the longer the the arm stays there the more advantage the defender can negate/obtain particulary if offense continues to move forward.

I'm wondering how generous you would be in giving the defender time and movement to get that arm out.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 10, 2018, 10:19am
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I think these are the rule references you are referring to:

Art. 4. The following acts constitute a foul when committed against a player
with the ball:
a. Keeping a hand or forearm on an opponent;
b. Putting two hands on an opponent;
c. Continually jabbing an opponent by extending an arm(s) and placing a
hand or forearm on the opponent, and
d. Using an arm bar to impede the progress of a dribbler.

Art. 6. A player shall not extend the arm(s) fully or partially other than
vertically so that freedom of movement of an opponent is hindered when
contact with the arm(s) occurs.

Where your judgement would most likely have to be used is: are they using an arm bar to impede or is a natural position and is there any "extension" of the arm by the defender.
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Old Tue Apr 10, 2018, 10:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantherdreams View Post
Sorry for the confusion.

Lets talk about your number 2. Assume there has been touch or tag on the close out (first touch by defense) and while gapping the ball carrier arms up and active, the ball carrier drops shoulder and attacks hard. In moving to respond the defenses arm/hand/ elbow etc ends up in the space between their bodies or torsos as the offense continues to try to attack forward. Obviously the d didn't try to "touch" the ball carrier, but touching is going on and the longer the the arm stays there the more advantage the defender can negate/obtain particulary if offense continues to move forward.

I'm wondering how generous you would be in giving the defender time and movement to get that arm out.
If the offense is driving into the torso of the defender, then the fact that the defender's forearm it trapped between the two torsos is immaterial.
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Old Tue Apr 10, 2018, 12:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantherdreams View Post
Sorry for the confusion.

Lets talk about your number 2. Assume there has been touch or tag on the close out (first touch by defense) and while gapping the ball carrier arms up and active, the ball carrier drops shoulder and attacks hard. In moving to respond the defenses arm/hand/ elbow etc ends up in the space between their bodies or torsos as the offense continues to try to attack forward. Obviously the d didn't try to "touch" the ball carrier, but touching is going on and the longer the the arm stays there the more advantage the defender can negate/obtain particulary if offense continues to move forward.

I'm wondering how generous you would be in giving the defender time and movement to get that arm out.
I think you are referring to the recent Harden plays (recent Ariza play comes to mind, wow, that was crazy) whereby he initiates tangling of appendages (mostly arms) and they call a foul on the defense. Then again, maybe you are not. Anyway, if the offense initiates that tangling action, I would think a no-call would be appropriate. Giving the defense time to get the arm out could be applied but one could also apply the concept to the offensive player if they initiated it.

At times, I find it difficult to enforce all of the rules against the defender of a ball handler when no one, including me, enforces rule 4-24 article 7 which indicates it is illegal to use a hand/forearm to prevent a defender from attacking the ball during a dribble/shot. Every kid in the country is taught to keep their off arm between the ball and the defender so defenders are prevented from stealing the ball. Imagine, teaching kids to violate a rule.
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Old Tue Apr 10, 2018, 04:37pm
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Penalty ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
... rule 4-24 article 7 which indicates it is illegal to use a hand/forearm to prevent a defender from attacking the ball during a dribble/shot.
It is not legal to use the hand and/or forearm to prevent an opponent
from attacking the ball during a dribble or when throwing for goal.


So what's the penalty with no contact (just preventing)? If a player does something illegal then there must be a penalty? Right? Violation? Tell him to, "Stop doing that"?

Prevent with contact? Player control foul?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Apr 10, 2018 at 04:58pm.
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Old Tue Apr 10, 2018, 04:37pm
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4-24-7 would probably apply if the offensive player contacted the defensive player by using his off-arm or hand. Do I understand the intent of that rule correctly. AfAIK, there are no non-contact personal fouls in the rulebook, and any 4-24-7 infraction would fall into the personal foul category, because it is a live-ball offense. So, simply covering the ball using a forearm while dribbling would not be a 4-24-7 violation, if no contact is involved.
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Old Wed Apr 11, 2018, 10:43am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
4-24-7 would probably apply if the offensive player contacted the defensive player by using his off-arm or hand. Do I understand the intent of that rule correctly. AfAIK, there are no non-contact personal fouls in the rulebook, and any 4-24-7 infraction would fall into the personal foul category, because it is a live-ball offense. So, simply covering the ball using a forearm while dribbling would not be a 4-24-7 violation, if no contact is involved.
Yes, have to have contact but that was what I meant in my post. Defender goes for a steal on the ball handler and ball handler keeps hand/arm between ball and defender and there is contact. Happens dozens and dozens of times every game, in HS, NCAA, etc. Suppose if going to enforce have to go with player control foul. I think the rule needs to be re-written. Arm/hand should be allowed to prevent defender by being held in place but not allowed to push/ward off.

Billy raised a good question. We have some rules written that do not necessarily and specifically providing a penalty. Another one involves teammates grasping/locking arms. Not allowed by rule but no penalty is providing...at least without contact. And if there is contact, who gets the foul? Say you have 3 teammates locking arms forming a wall/screen. Defender runs into, not a player's specific torso, but rather the locked arms. Who gets the foul? All 3?
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Old Wed Apr 11, 2018, 01:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
Yes, have to have contact but that was what I meant in my post. Defender goes for a steal on the ball handler and ball handler keeps hand/arm between ball and defender and there is contact. Happens dozens and dozens of times every game, in HS, NCAA, etc. Suppose if going to enforce have to go with player control foul. I think the rule needs to be re-written. Arm/hand should be allowed to prevent defender by being held in place but not allowed to push/ward off.

Billy raised a good question. We have some rules written that do not necessarily and specifically providing a penalty. Another one involves teammates grasping/locking arms. Not allowed by rule but no penalty is providing...at least without contact. And if there is contact, who gets the foul? Say you have 3 teammates locking arms forming a wall/screen. Defender runs into, not a player's specific torso, but rather the locked arms. Who gets the foul? All 3?
I agree. 4-24-7 should be more explicitly defined, by saying that it is illegal for a dribbler or ball handler to use his hand or arm not currently in contact with the ball (off hand/arm) to contact a defender, to protect the ball or gain separation from the defender.

Technically, the foul for contact with grasped/locking arms would be a multiple foul, charged to all 3 players involved. Since the foul is a team control foul in this situation, no free throws are attempted, and the opposing team would receive a throw-in at the spot nearest the foul.
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