Wrong name in book

[genetoy71]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

Doesn't say it has to be the correct name. We only report the fouls by using numbers. Names don't mean much.

The roster is used for more than just reporting fouls. Let's say you had an ejection or a concussion during a game and were filing the report the next day with the conference and state. In your report you state that you ejected #8 for fighting or did not allow him or her to participate because they were exhibiting concussion symptoms. The conference and state then ask you "What was #8's name?" Good luck with your response of "I didn't want to be a d-bag and give a T for something like this" so I chose to not enforce the rule and as a result don't have a name.

[CJP]

I know of a situation where a school played a kid for 5 years. The investigation looked into book keeping for those 5 years; including JV game books. The school was stripped of a conference championship because books showed the kid played high school basketball for 5 years.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by genetoy71

The roster is used for more than just reporting fouls. Let's say you had an ejection or a concussion during a game and were filing the report the next day with the conference and state. In your report you state that you ejected #8 for fighting or did not allow him or her to participate because they were exhibiting concussion symptoms. The conference and state then ask you "What was #8's name?" Good luck with your response of "I didn't want to be a d-bag and give a T for something like this" so I chose to not enforce the rule and as a result don't have a name.

Here, the conference and state are not going to ask the official what was #8's name. (an illegal number btw ). That information will be corroborated by the appropriate administering authorities through previous scorebooks or other means.

Officials do not know player's names for the most part any way so these hypotheticals are off base.

Again, if there is any reason to believe a wrong name was purposely used then a T would be warranted. But based on the OP it simply sounds like the visiting book just wrote down the wrong name. It was noticed and corrected.

Bookeeping error and move on. I swear some folks just like putting S in the game.

[jeremy341a]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

Here, the conference and state are not going to ask the official what was #8's name. (an illegal number btw ). That information will be corroborated by the appropriate administering authorities through previous scorebooks or other means.

Officials do not know player's names for the most part any way so these hypotheticals are off base.

Again, if there is any reason to believe a wrong name was purposely used then a T would be warranted. But based on the OP it simply sounds like the visiting book just wrote down the wrong name. It was noticed and corrected.

Bookeeping error and move on. I swear some folks just like putting S in the game.

Would you enforce if the visitors just wrote down the wrong number?

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

Would you enforce if the visitors just wrote down the wrong number?

Yes, as "changing a number" is clearly listed in the rules book. Changing a name is not.

But true story. Last week I worked a game between a private school my HS association covers and a public school that we don't cover.

At the start of the 4th quarter I'm called over to the table and told #13 is not in the book and had foul on them at the end of the 3rd. I check both books and #13 is not in either.

I was the U2, I talk to R at half court and say, "we have a T situation for wrong number in book." He says, "on who, visitors?". Me- "yup". R- "$*!%" For context, the dynamic of the game was that the V team felt like they were getting screwed based on foul discrepancy. Of course they weren't. The H team was just longer and better with some future D-1 front court players they couldn't handle. But there is a history of perception and some other dynamics at play that the R clearly did not want a T issued and says basically "handle it" or something to that affect.

I walk back over to table and visiting book and asst coach have flipped back in book to a previous game and indicate that #13 is actually #15 and they just wrote the number down wrong. I have it corrected in both books and tell H coach we are not going with a T as I'm treating it as a book keeping error and he says, "great, let's play." Signal to R we are ready to start the 4th as he is across the table ready to administer the throw in.

FWIW and additional context, I'm the R for about 90% for my HS games and have worked multiple state championships. The U1 was our association president, and the R is a D-1 official and also a high ranking officer in the military.

I'm sure many here will be appalled by our "blatant disregard" for the rules or some rhetoric but the fact is we were 3 veteran officials who ALL determined that a T in that situation was not warranted and would only make the game worse. Sometimes discretion and a little critical thinking are required.

In general with a book issue I have some leniency within reason. For example, if info is supplied at 9:50 instead of 10 minutes I'm not issuing a T where some here probably would. But I have confidence in my decision making and full support from my assigner.

In the OP situation, did we ask why the wrong name was in the book? Sometimes people just write down the wrong thing and unless there is reason to believe otherwise, I'm treating a name change as a book keeping error and playing the game.

If there is an ejection, or if the other team brings up an issue such as playing time requirements, then we have different situations. But again, if there is no reason to believe its more than just writing down the wrong name I'm not issuing a T. IMO this is one of the ways to be that guy. And that guy does not get the best schedules and is less well regarded in my neck of the woods.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

Yes, as "changing a number" is clearly listed in the rules book. Changing a name is not.

But adding a name is. If the name isn't there, it has to be added. The resumption is that the name is the golden value and numbers are changed to match them. If the name isn't there at all, then it is added and given a number.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

Yes, as "changing a number" is clearly listed in the rules book. Changing a name is not.

But true story. Last week I worked a game between a private school my HS association covers and a public school that we don't cover.

At the start of the 4th quarter I'm called over to the table and told #13 is not in the book and had foul on them at the end of the 3rd. I check both books and #13 is not in either.

I was the U2, I talk to R at half court and say, "we have a T situation for wrong number in book." He says, "on who, visitors?". Me- "yup". R- "$*!%" For context, the dynamic of the game was that the V team felt like they were getting screwed based on foul discrepancy. Of course they weren't. The H team was just longer and better with some future D-1 front court players they couldn't handle. But there is a history of perception and some other dynamics at play that the R clearly did not want a T issued and says basically "handle it" or something to that affect.

I walk back over to table and visiting book and asst coach have flipped back in book to a previous game and indicate that #13 is actually #15 and they just wrote the number down wrong. I have it corrected in both books and tell H coach we are not going with a T as I'm treating it as a book keeping error and he says, "great, let's play." Signal to R we are ready to start the 4th as he is across the table ready to administer the throw in.

FWIW and additional context, I'm the R for about 90% for my HS games and have worked multiple state championships. The U1 was our association president, and the R is a D-1 official and also a high ranking officer in the military.

I'm sure many here will be appalled by our "blatant disregard" for the rules or some rhetoric but the fact is we were 3 veteran officials who ALL determined that a T in that situation was not warranted and would only make the game worse. Sometimes discretion and a little critical thinking are required.

In general with a book issue I have some leniency within reason. For example, if info is supplied at 9:50 instead of 10 minutes I'm not issuing a T where some here probably would. But I have confidence in my decision making and full support from my assigner.

In the OP situation, did we ask why the wrong name was in the book? Sometimes people just write down the wrong thing and unless there is reason to believe otherwise, I'm treating a name change as a book keeping error and playing the game.

If there is an ejection, or if the other team brings up an issue such as playing time requirements, then we have different situations. But again, if there is no reason to believe its more than just writing down the wrong name I'm not issuing a T. IMO this is one of the ways to be that guy. And that guy does not get the best schedules and is less well regarded in my neck of the woods.

So unlike in the OP, where it was determined the wrong name was supplied to both scorers, you determined the right number was supplied to the scorers and then you followed the rule and had the scorer correct their error. Literally a completely different scenario where you would have been wrong to issue a T by rule.

I'm not sure you really have a handle on this rule in the first place.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

So unlike in the OP, where it was determined the wrong name was supplied to both scorers, you determined the right number was supplied to the scorers and then you followed the rule and had the scorer correct their error. Literally a completely different scenario where you would have been wrong to issue a T by rule.

I'm not sure you really have a handle on this rule in the first place.

He most definitely has a handle on the rule. He stated that the #13 was not supplied to the scorekeeper and was not in either book. He said they found an older game in the visitor's book and #13 used to be #15.

If you are going to accuse of folks of being afraid to enforce the rules or not having a "handle on this rule in the first place", you need read for detail a little better.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Raymond

He most definitely has a handle on the rule. He stated that the #13 was not supplied to the scorekeeper and was not in either book. He said they found an older game in the visitor's book and #13 used to be #15.

If you are going to accuse of folks of being afraid to enforce the rules or not having a "handle on this rule in the first place", you need read for detail a little better.

No, he said he checked both books and it wasn't in either of them. He said nothing about looking at the roster which was supplied. He didn't look at earlier games either until after he told the R they had a technical situation.

[UNIgiantslayers]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

In general with a book issue I have some leniency within reason. For example, if info is supplied at 9:50 instead of 10 minutes I'm not issuing a T where some here probably would. But I have confidence in my decision making and full support from my assigner.

Here's a tangential question that your post got me thinking about. This has happened a couple times this season to me, where they are at 9:30 or so and finishing up names in the book. I'm not issuing a T here because I don't have the clout around here to do that in my opinion. As I've mentioned in other threads, our tourney games are solely based on coaches' recommendations (i.e. no recs, they won't even consider you). However, at what point do you issue the T? What is your cut-off? If the opposing coach is savvy about the rule and gives you a hard time, what is your response? How would your supervisor respond? Just curious what everyone's take on this is.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers

Here's a tangential question that your post got me thinking about. This has happened a couple times this season to me, where they are at 9:30 or so and finishing up names in the book. I'm not issuing a T here because I don't have the clout around here to do that in my opinion. As I've mentioned in other threads, our tourney games are solely based on coaches' recommendations (i.e. no recs, they won't even consider you). However, at what point do you issue the T? What is your cut-off? If the opposing coach is savvy about the rule and gives you a hard time, what is your response? How would your supervisor respond? Just curious what everyone's take on this is.

It doesn't matter when they finish filling out the book. The only thing that matters is when the list of names and numbers is presented to the scorer. That list, not the book, is what the rule hinges on.

The custom here is to check the book with 8:00 left before the game. If the scorer hasn't received the list by then, it's going to be a T. Unless the scorer tells me when she has received the list (and that's never happened) I don't know exactly when they get it.

A different state I used to live in had the custom to check the book at 12:00. That let us prompt the coach for the roster so he couldn't screw it up.

[jeremy341a]

What if the reasoning for the wrong name was this?

Book reads
Jim Smith #5
Dan Jones #15

Real Info
Jim Smith #15
Dan Jones #5

So now we issue a T for changing numbers bc we don't have the right number listed with the right player correct or is this also a book keeper error? What if it is bc the kids switched jerseys without telling their coach?

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by genetoy71

The roster is used for more than just reporting fouls. Let's say you had an ejection or a concussion during a game and were filing the report the next day with the conference and state. In your report you state that you ejected #8 for fighting or did not allow him or her to participate because they were exhibiting concussion symptoms. The conference and state then ask you "What was #8's name?" Good luck with your response of "I didn't want to be a d-bag and give a T for something like this" so I chose to not enforce the rule and as a result don't have a name.

So what you are saying is that some of you guys, you included, have no clue the names of the players without help from the book? How is that possible? I'm not saying I know the names of every player I see during the year, but I know a lot of them.

So if their correct name is not in the book, you have NO way of finding out their correct name?

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

So what you are saying is that some of you guys, you included, have no clue the names of the players without help from the book? How is that possible? I'm not saying I know the names of every player I see during the year, but I know a lot of them.

So if their correct name is not in the book, you have NO way of finding out their correct name?

I might see a team twice in a year. I don't work games for my local school. Why (and how) would I know their names. I could see how you might do a little research ahead of time for varsity games and learn about a star or two but other than that?

If I need a player's name (injury, ejection, etc) I ask the scorer to write it down for me.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

So what you are saying is that some of you guys, you included, have no clue the names of the players without help from the book? How is that possible? I'm not saying I know the names of every player I see during the year, but I know a lot of them.

So if their correct name is not in the book, you have NO way of finding out their correct name?

I'm not interested in the names of players. I know the better ones but that's not my job. I don't call any player by name. There should be names next to numbers in the book but I'm not checking birth certificates or drivers licenses. If you list a kid as superman number 22 I'm not addressing it...at all. Now if you want to say superman is number 10 instead of 22 after 10 minute mark its a problem....and I know they're are quarter limits etc in high school but that would be for someone else to take up with the conference etc.