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  #61 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 19, 2017, 02:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
I work for 2 HS commissioners. One of the them has explicitly stated that he wants us to make "good decisions". If they sometimes fall outside the letter of the law, he'll take the heat.
If he doesn't explicitly say, in writing, to not follow the rules if they produce an unintended bad result, I would not trust him to take the heat if a decision you make blows up in his face.
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  #62 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 19, 2017, 02:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastshire View Post
If he doesn't explicitly say, in writing, to not follow the rules if they produce an unintended bad result, I would not trust him to take the heat if a decision you make blows up in his face.
I trust him 100% in regards to his proclamation. He is a nationally known official, and locally he is known for his charitable works. He is probably the most bluntly honest person I have ever met in my life. Unless I have totally misjudged him in the last 3 years I've come to know him, he is the last person I would expect to weasel out of taking responsibility.

Additionally, he didn't say "not follow the rules if they produce an unintended bad result", he said to make "good decisions". He is very big on situational decision-making and context.

Hopefully you don't work for supervisors who would not stand behind their words.
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 19, 2017, 02:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy341a View Post
What if the reasoning for the wrong name was this?

Book reads
Jim Smith #5
Dan Jones #15

Real Info
Jim Smith #15
Dan Jones #5

So now we issue a T for changing numbers bc we don't have the right number listed with the right player correct or is this also a book keeper error? What if it is bc the kids switched jerseys without telling their coach?
Yes, that's a T. Specifically in the rule or a case.
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  #64 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 19, 2017, 02:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
I trust him 100% in regards to his proclamation. He is a nationally known official, and locally he is known for his charitable works. He is probably the most bluntly honest person I have ever met in my life. Unless I have totally misjudged him in the last 3 years I've come to know him, he is the last person I would expect to weasel out of taking responsibility.

Additionally, he didn't say "not follow the rules if they produce an unintended bad result", he said to make "good decisions". He is very big on situational decision-making and context.

Hopefully you don't work for supervisors who would not stand behind their words.
I don't have the context of your relationship and my opinion is colored by my real life line of work.

"Good decisions" sounds like the kind of code words I expect to hear someone who wants a certain result but also wants plausible deniability when asked if they directed that result. I would not expect someone who says that to stand behind me if I followed their advice.

However, if the sentiment is more "make the best decisions possible within the rules" and less "make good decisions [and the rules be damned]." that's a different kettle of fish.
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 19, 2017, 02:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by genetoy71 View Post
The roster is used for more than just reporting fouls. Let's say you had an ejection or a concussion during a game and were filing the report the next day with the conference and state. In your report you state that you ejected #8 for fighting or did not allow him or her to participate because they were exhibiting concussion symptoms. The conference and state then ask you "What was #8's name?" Good luck with your response of "I didn't want to be a d-bag and give a T for something like this" so I chose to not enforce the rule and as a result don't have a name.
So what you are saying is that some of you guys, you included, have no clue the names of the players without help from the book? How is that possible? I'm not saying I know the names of every player I see during the year, but I know a lot of them.

So if their correct name is not in the book, you have NO way of finding out their correct name?
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 19, 2017, 02:41pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Referee View Post
So what you are saying is that some of you guys, you included, have no clue the names of the players without help from the book? How is that possible? I'm not saying I know the names of every player I see during the year, but I know a lot of them.

So if their correct name is not in the book, you have NO way of finding out their correct name?
I might see a team twice in a year. I don't work games for my local school. Why (and how) would I know their names. I could see how you might do a little research ahead of time for varsity games and learn about a star or two but other than that?

If I need a player's name (injury, ejection, etc) I ask the scorer to write it down for me.
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 19, 2017, 02:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Referee View Post
So what you are saying is that some of you guys, you included, have no clue the names of the players without help from the book? How is that possible? I'm not saying I know the names of every player I see during the year, but I know a lot of them.

So if their correct name is not in the book, you have NO way of finding out their correct name?
I'm not interested in the names of players. I know the better ones but that's not my job. I don't call any player by name. There should be names next to numbers in the book but I'm not checking birth certificates or drivers licenses. If you list a kid as superman number 22 I'm not addressing it...at all. Now if you want to say superman is number 10 instead of 22 after 10 minute mark its a problem....and I know they're are quarter limits etc in high school but that would be for someone else to take up with the conference etc.

Last edited by BigCat; Tue Dec 19, 2017 at 02:53pm.
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 19, 2017, 03:46pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
The names are there for the opposing team's preparation. The coaches instruct the players who they will guarding. If the roster said the starters were John, Dave, etc. but Brad, Chuck, etc. stepped on the floor wearing the numbers listed as starters, that would be wrong, unfair, and not in the spirit of the game. The purpose of providing the names is for the opposing coach to know who is actually starting. They don't make defensive assignments on numbers but on players.
As someone who has coached and officiated in 3 states and worked in sports media in different capacities I would say the above is not at all accurate in my experience.

The names in the book are primarily for stat keeping and the media, not coaches' preparation. I coached against several future NBA players as a HS assistant. When watching tape and instructing players on how to guard/attack certain players we always said #32 likes to do this, not Jeff Green does this.

Coaches go by numbers not names, especially when if its not a star player or a local rivalry and they are unlikely to even know most of the kid's names. And coaches are especially not going by the name in the book 10 minutes before they play to rely on preparation. What if #32 and #23 decide to switch numbers before the game and are both entered into the book correctly?

Short of an ejection, injury, or some issue for a sanctioning body to worry about that carries over to the next game the name in the book is not really a concern to me as an official.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy341a View Post
What if the reasoning for the wrong name was this?

Book reads
Jim Smith #5
Dan Jones #15

Real Info
Jim Smith #15
Dan Jones #5

So now we issue a T for changing numbers bc we don't have the right number listed with the right player correct or is this also a book keeper error? What if it is bc the kids switched jerseys without telling their coach?
If it was a mistake and the names were just entered wrong, I'm calling it a book keeping error and moving on.

What matters to me is that for the purposes of calling fouls, #32 on the floor is #32 in the book.

What I think matters is how the mistake is discovered. Is the home book or a coach saying #32 is not Johnny? Is the visiting book pointing out their own error and correcting it?

Again, short of some sort of intentional deception or trying to circumvent a rule/punishment I'm not issuing a T b/c I don't think the situation warrants it and I have support from my commissioner to use my judgment.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Good example. You can't decide to switch names to avoid the T vs switching the numbers.
See above. I can and will if I think it was simply a mistake in writing the names.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy341a View Post
That works for me. Wouldn't the roster be what they presented to the actually book keeper and not what was a game or two before? If the visiting book keeper filled out that nights wrong then that is what is presented to the home book keeper than the roster was incorrect. However if they presented the previous games info to the home scorekeeper than they copied that wrong I would see that as a book keeping error.
To be clear, in the example I gave a T should have been awarded by rule. A book keeping error is limited to the official scorer. If the info supplied is wrong and requires the number to be changed a T is warranted. I/We decided to bend the rules and extend the book keeping error to the V book who had the number incorrect on their roster and in the book. They said they had 2 rosters and used the wrong one.

What I'm arguing is that there is more latitude with a name change as my reading of the rule does not require a T.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Yes, that's a T. Specifically in the rule or a case.
Do you have a reference?

Last edited by VaTerp; Tue Dec 19, 2017 at 03:48pm.
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 19, 2017, 09:39pm
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Location: Southwest Missouri
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My two cents here: not calling the T if warranted in these situations can cause more trouble than just calling it sometimes. What happens when itís late game and it affects the outcome. I can see both sides of the OP but I would argue that anyone issuing a T is not being OO, just that the interp is adding a name is same as changing a name. I can also understand calling a bookkeeping error. If it happens to me, Iíll go with my gut at the moment.

In fast pitch, we have team warning for changes after lineup accepted. After that, coach is restricted to dugout. Much easier in that sport


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