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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 19, 2017, 05:04am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
If the roster said the starters were John, Dave, etc. but Brad, Chuck, etc. stepped on the floor wearing the numbers listed as starters, that would be wrong, unfair, and not in the spirit of the game. The purpose of providing the names is for the opposing coach to know who is actually starting. They don't make defensive assignments on numbers but on players.

If it turned out to be an elaborate ruse like that, I could see going with the T, but not under the rules cited above, but rather as a deliberate unsportsmanlike act. The OP paints a picture of one wrong name, which is not even noticed until after the fact, and quite often might not be noticed/mentioned at all. I don't think the intent and purpose of the rule is for a T here.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 19, 2017, 07:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
It is truly a small world. VG game tonight: I checked the book, and the visitors' side had........... no names at all. I asked the scorer if the list submitted included names. She said it did, then picked it up and showed it to me. Apparently she didn't care what the names were, and after a moment of consideration I decided I didn't either. Play on. But take this deeper. These teams didn't know each other, but let's say they did. Middle of the second quarter a sub enters. Buzzer sounds and the scorer waves us over. 13's name is wrong in the book. She's not Mary Smith, she's Mary Jones. Let's just say that it's a given that this is illegal. (obviously this issue is in doubt)
Official: "Coach, she says 13's name is wrong in the book."

Coach: "Let me see! Uh..... no! That's her name, yeah that's it, Mary Smith. That's my story and I'm sticking to it."

What are you gonna do, ask for her ID?
I'm going to write it up and send it to the state. I imagine when the state writes the coach, he will be making a contribution back to the state.

A team that is making a habit of not putting names in the score book is likely trying to skirt the rules on playing limits. I'm probably writing that up as well.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 19, 2017, 08:19am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frezer11 View Post
I was thinking the same thing. If I saw a roster that said:

5 John
11 John
13 John
22 John
25 John
30 John
31 John
43 John
44 John

...Then I think I 'd have a problem with that.
Maybe each player is identified by his favorite New Testament scripture.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 19, 2017, 09:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastshire View Post
Was the name there before? Is it there now? It's been added.

"No, it was changed." How was it changed? You took one name off and added a new one.

I'm always amazed at the lengths some members of this forum will go to bail out coaches and players from technical fouls.
Why be a d-bag and give a T for something like this? It has no bearing on the game at all. Who cares what their name is? All we really need is the correct amount of players in the book with their correct number. I couldn't care less what their real name is to some degree. If it's a simple error on one name and not an obvious skirting of the rules I'm not going to worry about it.

I'm always amazed at the lengths some members of this forum will go to get themselves noticed with an unnecessary technical foul.

Last edited by SD Referee; Tue Dec 19, 2017 at 09:55am.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 19, 2017, 09:49am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by genetoy71 View Post
3-2-2:
At least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time, each team shall supply the official scorer with the NAME and NUMBER of each team member and designate the five starting players. Failure to comply results in a technical foul. (10-1-1 PENALTY)
Doesn't say it has to be the correct name. We only report the fouls by using numbers. Names don't mean much.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 19, 2017, 10:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastshire View Post
Of course it's an administrative error, that's why it's an administrative technical. It's a T to add a name to the book which is what you have to do here.
I meant book keeping error, which I'm treating it as and not issuing a T.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastshire View Post
Was the name there before? Is it there now? It's been added.

I'm always amazed at the lengths some members of this forum will go to bail out coaches and players from technical fouls.
Well, since this doesn't involve a coach or player technical nobody is bailing anyone out of anything.

I'm always amazed at the lengths that some will go to to penalize teams who are not gaining any advantage not intended by rule by enforcing the strictest possible interpretation of some rules.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 19, 2017, 10:41am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Referee View Post
Doesn't say it has to be the correct name. We only report the fouls by using numbers. Names don't mean much.
The roster is used for more than just reporting fouls. Let's say you had an ejection or a concussion during a game and were filing the report the next day with the conference and state. In your report you state that you ejected #8 for fighting or did not allow him or her to participate because they were exhibiting concussion symptoms. The conference and state then ask you "What was #8's name?" Good luck with your response of "I didn't want to be a d-bag and give a T for something like this" so I chose to not enforce the rule and as a result don't have a name.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 19, 2017, 11:07am
CJP CJP is offline
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I know of a situation where a school played a kid for 5 years. The investigation looked into book keeping for those 5 years; including JV game books. The school was stripped of a conference championship because books showed the kid played high school basketball for 5 years.

Last edited by CJP; Tue Dec 19, 2017 at 11:09am.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 19, 2017, 11:07am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by genetoy71 View Post
The roster is used for more than just reporting fouls. Let's say you had an ejection or a concussion during a game and were filing the report the next day with the conference and state. In your report you state that you ejected #8 for fighting or did not allow him or her to participate because they were exhibiting concussion symptoms. The conference and state then ask you "What was #8's name?" Good luck with your response of "I didn't want to be a d-bag and give a T for something like this" so I chose to not enforce the rule and as a result don't have a name.
Here, the conference and state are not going to ask the official what was #8's name. (an illegal number btw ). That information will be corroborated by the appropriate administering authorities through previous scorebooks or other means.

Officials do not know player's names for the most part any way so these hypotheticals are off base.

Again, if there is any reason to believe a wrong name was purposely used then a T would be warranted. But based on the OP it simply sounds like the visiting book just wrote down the wrong name. It was noticed and corrected.

Bookeeping error and move on. I swear some folks just like putting S in the game.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 19, 2017, 11:23am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VaTerp View Post
Here, the conference and state are not going to ask the official what was #8's name. (an illegal number btw ). That information will be corroborated by the appropriate administering authorities through previous scorebooks or other means.

Officials do not know player's names for the most part any way so these hypotheticals are off base.

Again, if there is any reason to believe a wrong name was purposely used then a T would be warranted. But based on the OP it simply sounds like the visiting book just wrote down the wrong name. It was noticed and corrected.

Bookeeping error and move on. I swear some folks just like putting S in the game.
Would you enforce if the visitors just wrote down the wrong number?
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 19, 2017, 12:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
I would not allow a coach to submit a roster with the names of the 1987 Celtics. It would be amusing, but improper.
...especially if Len Bias's name were listed.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 19, 2017, 12:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy341a View Post
Would you enforce if the visitors just wrote down the wrong number?
Yes, as "changing a number" is clearly listed in the rules book. Changing a name is not.

But true story. Last week I worked a game between a private school my HS association covers and a public school that we don't cover.

At the start of the 4th quarter I'm called over to the table and told #13 is not in the book and had foul on them at the end of the 3rd. I check both books and #13 is not in either.

I was the U2, I talk to R at half court and say, "we have a T situation for wrong number in book." He says, "on who, visitors?". Me- "yup". R- "$*!%" For context, the dynamic of the game was that the V team felt like they were getting screwed based on foul discrepancy. Of course they weren't. The H team was just longer and better with some future D-1 front court players they couldn't handle. But there is a history of perception and some other dynamics at play that the R clearly did not want a T issued and says basically "handle it" or something to that affect.

I walk back over to table and visiting book and asst coach have flipped back in book to a previous game and indicate that #13 is actually #15 and they just wrote the number down wrong. I have it corrected in both books and tell H coach we are not going with a T as I'm treating it as a book keeping error and he says, "great, let's play." Signal to R we are ready to start the 4th as he is across the table ready to administer the throw in.

FWIW and additional context, I'm the R for about 90% for my HS games and have worked multiple state championships. The U1 was our association president, and the R is a D-1 official and also a high ranking officer in the military.

I'm sure many here will be appalled by our "blatant disregard" for the rules or some rhetoric but the fact is we were 3 veteran officials who ALL determined that a T in that situation was not warranted and would only make the game worse. Sometimes discretion and a little critical thinking are required.

In general with a book issue I have some leniency within reason. For example, if info is supplied at 9:50 instead of 10 minutes I'm not issuing a T where some here probably would. But I have confidence in my decision making and full support from my assigner.

In the OP situation, did we ask why the wrong name was in the book? Sometimes people just write down the wrong thing and unless there is reason to believe otherwise, I'm treating a name change as a book keeping error and playing the game.

If there is an ejection, or if the other team brings up an issue such as playing time requirements, then we have different situations. But again, if there is no reason to believe its more than just writing down the wrong name I'm not issuing a T. IMO this is one of the ways to be that guy. And that guy does not get the best schedules and is less well regarded in my neck of the woods.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 19, 2017, 12:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VaTerp View Post
Yes, as "changing a number" is clearly listed in the rules book. Changing a name is not.
But adding a name is. If the name isn't there, it has to be added. The resumption is that the name is the golden value and numbers are changed to match them. If the name isn't there at all, then it is added and given a number.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 19, 2017, 12:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VaTerp View Post
Yes, as "changing a number" is clearly listed in the rules book. Changing a name is not.

But true story. Last week I worked a game between a private school my HS association covers and a public school that we don't cover.

At the start of the 4th quarter I'm called over to the table and told #13 is not in the book and had foul on them at the end of the 3rd. I check both books and #13 is not in either.

I was the U2, I talk to R at half court and say, "we have a T situation for wrong number in book." He says, "on who, visitors?". Me- "yup". R- "$*!%" For context, the dynamic of the game was that the V team felt like they were getting screwed based on foul discrepancy. Of course they weren't. The H team was just longer and better with some future D-1 front court players they couldn't handle. But there is a history of perception and some other dynamics at play that the R clearly did not want a T issued and says basically "handle it" or something to that affect.

I walk back over to table and visiting book and asst coach have flipped back in book to a previous game and indicate that #13 is actually #15 and they just wrote the number down wrong. I have it corrected in both books and tell H coach we are not going with a T as I'm treating it as a book keeping error and he says, "great, let's play." Signal to R we are ready to start the 4th as he is across the table ready to administer the throw in.

FWIW and additional context, I'm the R for about 90% for my HS games and have worked multiple state championships. The U1 was our association president, and the R is a D-1 official and also a high ranking officer in the military.

I'm sure many here will be appalled by our "blatant disregard" for the rules or some rhetoric but the fact is we were 3 veteran officials who ALL determined that a T in that situation was not warranted and would only make the game worse. Sometimes discretion and a little critical thinking are required.

In general with a book issue I have some leniency within reason. For example, if info is supplied at 9:50 instead of 10 minutes I'm not issuing a T where some here probably would. But I have confidence in my decision making and full support from my assigner.

In the OP situation, did we ask why the wrong name was in the book? Sometimes people just write down the wrong thing and unless there is reason to believe otherwise, I'm treating a name change as a book keeping error and playing the game.

If there is an ejection, or if the other team brings up an issue such as playing time requirements, then we have different situations. But again, if there is no reason to believe its more than just writing down the wrong name I'm not issuing a T. IMO this is one of the ways to be that guy. And that guy does not get the best schedules and is less well regarded in my neck of the woods.
So unlike in the OP, where it was determined the wrong name was supplied to both scorers, you determined the right number was supplied to the scorers and then you followed the rule and had the scorer correct their error. Literally a completely different scenario where you would have been wrong to issue a T by rule.

I'm not sure you really have a handle on this rule in the first place.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 19, 2017, 12:52pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VaTerp View Post

In general with a book issue I have some leniency within reason. For example, if info is supplied at 9:50 instead of 10 minutes I'm not issuing a T where some here probably would. But I have confidence in my decision making and full support from my assigner.
Here's a tangential question that your post got me thinking about. This has happened a couple times this season to me, where they are at 9:30 or so and finishing up names in the book. I'm not issuing a T here because I don't have the clout around here to do that in my opinion. As I've mentioned in other threads, our tourney games are solely based on coaches' recommendations (i.e. no recs, they won't even consider you). However, at what point do you issue the T? What is your cut-off? If the opposing coach is savvy about the rule and gives you a hard time, what is your response? How would your supervisor respond? Just curious what everyone's take on this is.
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