Wrong name in book

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by genetoy71

3-2-2:
At least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time, each team shall supply the official scorer with the NAME and NUMBER of each team member and designate the five starting players. Failure to comply results in a technical foul. (10-1-1 PENALTY)

Doesn't say it has to be the correct name. We only report the fouls by using numbers. Names don't mean much.

[genetoy71]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

Doesn't say it has to be the correct name. We only report the fouls by using numbers. Names don't mean much.

The roster is used for more than just reporting fouls. Let's say you had an ejection or a concussion during a game and were filing the report the next day with the conference and state. In your report you state that you ejected #8 for fighting or did not allow him or her to participate because they were exhibiting concussion symptoms. The conference and state then ask you "What was #8's name?" Good luck with your response of "I didn't want to be a d-bag and give a T for something like this" so I chose to not enforce the rule and as a result don't have a name.

[CJP]

I know of a situation where a school played a kid for 5 years. The investigation looked into book keeping for those 5 years; including JV game books. The school was stripped of a conference championship because books showed the kid played high school basketball for 5 years.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by genetoy71

The roster is used for more than just reporting fouls. Let's say you had an ejection or a concussion during a game and were filing the report the next day with the conference and state. In your report you state that you ejected #8 for fighting or did not allow him or her to participate because they were exhibiting concussion symptoms. The conference and state then ask you "What was #8's name?" Good luck with your response of "I didn't want to be a d-bag and give a T for something like this" so I chose to not enforce the rule and as a result don't have a name.

Here, the conference and state are not going to ask the official what was #8's name. (an illegal number btw ). That information will be corroborated by the appropriate administering authorities through previous scorebooks or other means.

Officials do not know player's names for the most part any way so these hypotheticals are off base.

Again, if there is any reason to believe a wrong name was purposely used then a T would be warranted. But based on the OP it simply sounds like the visiting book just wrote down the wrong name. It was noticed and corrected.

Bookeeping error and move on. I swear some folks just like putting S in the game.

[jeremy341a]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

Here, the conference and state are not going to ask the official what was #8's name. (an illegal number btw ). That information will be corroborated by the appropriate administering authorities through previous scorebooks or other means.

Officials do not know player's names for the most part any way so these hypotheticals are off base.

Again, if there is any reason to believe a wrong name was purposely used then a T would be warranted. But based on the OP it simply sounds like the visiting book just wrote down the wrong name. It was noticed and corrected.

Bookeeping error and move on. I swear some folks just like putting S in the game.

Would you enforce if the visitors just wrote down the wrong number?

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

Would you enforce if the visitors just wrote down the wrong number?

Yes, as "changing a number" is clearly listed in the rules book. Changing a name is not.

But true story. Last week I worked a game between a private school my HS association covers and a public school that we don't cover.

At the start of the 4th quarter I'm called over to the table and told #13 is not in the book and had foul on them at the end of the 3rd. I check both books and #13 is not in either.

I was the U2, I talk to R at half court and say, "we have a T situation for wrong number in book." He says, "on who, visitors?". Me- "yup". R- "$*!%" For context, the dynamic of the game was that the V team felt like they were getting screwed based on foul discrepancy. Of course they weren't. The H team was just longer and better with some future D-1 front court players they couldn't handle. But there is a history of perception and some other dynamics at play that the R clearly did not want a T issued and says basically "handle it" or something to that affect.

I walk back over to table and visiting book and asst coach have flipped back in book to a previous game and indicate that #13 is actually #15 and they just wrote the number down wrong. I have it corrected in both books and tell H coach we are not going with a T as I'm treating it as a book keeping error and he says, "great, let's play." Signal to R we are ready to start the 4th as he is across the table ready to administer the throw in.

FWIW and additional context, I'm the R for about 90% for my HS games and have worked multiple state championships. The U1 was our association president, and the R is a D-1 official and also a high ranking officer in the military.

I'm sure many here will be appalled by our "blatant disregard" for the rules or some rhetoric but the fact is we were 3 veteran officials who ALL determined that a T in that situation was not warranted and would only make the game worse. Sometimes discretion and a little critical thinking are required.

In general with a book issue I have some leniency within reason. For example, if info is supplied at 9:50 instead of 10 minutes I'm not issuing a T where some here probably would. But I have confidence in my decision making and full support from my assigner.

In the OP situation, did we ask why the wrong name was in the book? Sometimes people just write down the wrong thing and unless there is reason to believe otherwise, I'm treating a name change as a book keeping error and playing the game.

If there is an ejection, or if the other team brings up an issue such as playing time requirements, then we have different situations. But again, if there is no reason to believe its more than just writing down the wrong name I'm not issuing a T. IMO this is one of the ways to be that guy. And that guy does not get the best schedules and is less well regarded in my neck of the woods.

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by genetoy71

The roster is used for more than just reporting fouls. Let's say you had an ejection or a concussion during a game and were filing the report the next day with the conference and state. In your report you state that you ejected #8 for fighting or did not allow him or her to participate because they were exhibiting concussion symptoms. The conference and state then ask you "What was #8's name?" Good luck with your response of "I didn't want to be a d-bag and give a T for something like this" so I chose to not enforce the rule and as a result don't have a name.

So what you are saying is that some of you guys, you included, have no clue the names of the players without help from the book? How is that possible? I'm not saying I know the names of every player I see during the year, but I know a lot of them.

So if their correct name is not in the book, you have NO way of finding out their correct name?

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

So what you are saying is that some of you guys, you included, have no clue the names of the players without help from the book? How is that possible? I'm not saying I know the names of every player I see during the year, but I know a lot of them.

So if their correct name is not in the book, you have NO way of finding out their correct name?

I might see a team twice in a year. I don't work games for my local school. Why (and how) would I know their names. I could see how you might do a little research ahead of time for varsity games and learn about a star or two but other than that?

If I need a player's name (injury, ejection, etc) I ask the scorer to write it down for me.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

So what you are saying is that some of you guys, you included, have no clue the names of the players without help from the book? How is that possible? I'm not saying I know the names of every player I see during the year, but I know a lot of them.

So if their correct name is not in the book, you have NO way of finding out their correct name?

I'm not interested in the names of players. I know the better ones but that's not my job. I don't call any player by name. There should be names next to numbers in the book but I'm not checking birth certificates or drivers licenses. If you list a kid as superman number 22 I'm not addressing it...at all. Now if you want to say superman is number 10 instead of 22 after 10 minute mark its a problem....and I know they're are quarter limits etc in high school but that would be for someone else to take up with the conference etc.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The names are there for the opposing team's preparation. The coaches instruct the players who they will guarding. If the roster said the starters were John, Dave, etc. but Brad, Chuck, etc. stepped on the floor wearing the numbers listed as starters, that would be wrong, unfair, and not in the spirit of the game. The purpose of providing the names is for the opposing coach to know who is actually starting. They don't make defensive assignments on numbers but on players.

As someone who has coached and officiated in 3 states and worked in sports media in different capacities I would say the above is not at all accurate in my experience.

The names in the book are primarily for stat keeping and the media, not coaches' preparation. I coached against several future NBA players as a HS assistant. When watching tape and instructing players on how to guard/attack certain players we always said #32 likes to do this, not Jeff Green does this.

Coaches go by numbers not names, especially when if its not a star player or a local rivalry and they are unlikely to even know most of the kid's names. And coaches are especially not going by the name in the book 10 minutes before they play to rely on preparation. What if #32 and #23 decide to switch numbers before the game and are both entered into the book correctly?

Short of an ejection, injury, or some issue for a sanctioning body to worry about that carries over to the next game the name in the book is not really a concern to me as an official.

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

What if the reasoning for the wrong name was this?

Book reads
Jim Smith #5
Dan Jones #15

Real Info
Jim Smith #15
Dan Jones #5

So now we issue a T for changing numbers bc we don't have the right number listed with the right player correct or is this also a book keeper error? What if it is bc the kids switched jerseys without telling their coach?

If it was a mistake and the names were just entered wrong, I'm calling it a book keeping error and moving on.

What matters to me is that for the purposes of calling fouls, #32 on the floor is #32 in the book.

What I think matters is how the mistake is discovered. Is the home book or a coach saying #32 is not Johnny? Is the visiting book pointing out their own error and correcting it?

Again, short of some sort of intentional deception or trying to circumvent a rule/punishment I'm not issuing a T b/c I don't think the situation warrants it and I have support from my commissioner to use my judgment.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Good example. You can't decide to switch names to avoid the T vs switching the numbers.

See above. I can and will if I think it was simply a mistake in writing the names.

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

That works for me. Wouldn't the roster be what they presented to the actually book keeper and not what was a game or two before? If the visiting book keeper filled out that nights wrong then that is what is presented to the home book keeper than the roster was incorrect. However if they presented the previous games info to the home scorekeeper than they copied that wrong I would see that as a book keeping error.

To be clear, in the example I gave a T should have been awarded by rule. A book keeping error is limited to the official scorer. If the info supplied is wrong and requires the number to be changed a T is warranted. I/We decided to bend the rules and extend the book keeping error to the V book who had the number incorrect on their roster and in the book. They said they had 2 rosters and used the wrong one.

What I'm arguing is that there is more latitude with a name change as my reading of the rule does not require a T.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Yes, that's a T. Specifically in the rule or a case.

Do you have a reference?