6 on the Court -- unnoticed...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

If discovered during a live ball, assess the T.

I think that we all can agree on that.

Originally Posted by Raymond

If discovered during a dead ball, you can't do anything but send the player off. .

Citation please. You'll probably need a definition of "participating". Good luck with that.

So you're going to ignore the sixth team member in the following scenarios because the ball is dead?

The last Team A free throw attempt is successful. The clock hasn't started. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

Team A scores a field goal. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is running. What’s the call?

Please note that although I'm leaning toward penalizing six team members in some dead ball situations, I'm not 100% sure that I'm correct in doing so, certainly not as sure as some of you are that you can't penalize six team members in all dead ball situations.

Without a NFHS definition of "participating" none of us can be 100% sure what to do unless we make up stuff as we go along, or depend on situations that harken back to jump balls after every goal.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by deecee

don't go down this rabbit hole. it wont end well.

What won't end well? Enforcing the rules as written? That's exactly what officials are instructed to do. The NCAAM even has that as a POE this year.
Your advice continues to be wrong and not worth listening to.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

You'll probably need a definition of "participating". Good luck with that.

Without a NFHS definition of "participating" none of us can be 100% sure what to do unless we make up stuff as we go along, or depend on situations that harken back to jump balls after every goal.

Use the NFHS play rulings and rules which state that a team member participates when the ball becomes live. You are the only one who doesn't agree with that definition.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

What won't end well? Enforcing the rules as written? That's exactly what officials are instructed to do. The NCAAM even has that as a POE this year.
Your advice continues to be wrong and not worth listening to.


Use the NFHS play rulings and rules which state that a team member participates when the ball becomes live. You are the only one who doesn't agree with that definition.

You're like that uncle that everyone wishes won't show up to family events.

[Nevadaref]

Says the little kid who constantly misbehaves and has to be spanked.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

What won't end well? Enforcing the rules as written? That's exactly what officials are instructed to do. The NCAAM even has that as a POE this year.
Your advice continues to be wrong and not worth listening to.

I may be mistaken but I don't believe Raymond's comment was in reference to how to enforce the rules but in following the thread that as it was going.

[scanfocustarget]

A.R. 251 NCAA Men's

Under this Case Book adjudication, it does not follow that you can only penalize the "6 players on court" infraction while the ball is live.

I don't have access to PDF so I cannot copy/paste the entire play (it's a bit long to type), but please look this adjudication up.

Also, per the notes on this case play:

".... The penalty of Rule 10-2.6 applies only when the sixth player participates when the ball is live. There is no time limit within which the officials have to recognize and penalize the infraction. However, the officials must see the violation occur or have personal knowledge that it did occur in order to penalize this infraction. A monitor may not be used to obtain such knowledge."

Use your best judgment. If a timeout was called and you immediately notice 6 are walking toward the bench, in most scenarios you can probably deduce with high certainty that there were 6 guys on the floor. For me, personally, that is enough personal knowledge to administer the technical.

Edit: I don't have NFHS case book in front of me, but perhaps comparable adjudication is therein.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by scanfocustarget

A.R. 251 NCAA Men's

Under this Case Book adjudication, it does not follow that you can only penalize the "6 players on court" infraction while the ball is live.

I don't have access to PDF so I cannot copy/paste the entire play (it's a bit long to type), but please look this adjudication up.

Also, per the notes on this case play:

".... The penalty of Rule 10-2.6 applies only when the sixth player participates when the ball is live. There is no time limit within which the officials have to recognize and penalize the infraction. However, the officials must see the violation occur or have personal knowledge that it did occur in order to penalize this infraction. A monitor may not be used to obtain such knowledge."

Nice that the NCAA clearly states in the case play that participation is when the ball is live. Of course, the NFHS does the same thing, but that isn't good enough for BillyMac. He wants it defined within the rules book.

Additionally, our point of contention in this thread involves when this action may be penalized under NFHS rules. The NFHS specifies that it must be while being violated. The NCAA rule is obviously different, and perhaps better, in that it puts no time limit upon the officials to recognize the infraction. The NFHS rule isn't written that way.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Nice that the NCAA clearly states in the case play that participation is when the ball is live.

I liked it also until I noticed the "exception":

"However, the officials must ... have personal knowledge that it did occur in order to penalize this infraction".

To me, this means that even though the ball may now be dead, if the officials were certain that there were six playing when the ball was live immediately preceding the dead ball, they can still penalize.

Again, I'm not an NCAA official, and it still doesn't help us with a NFHS interpretation.

[scanfocustarget]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Nice that the NCAA clearly states in the case play that participation is when the ball is live. Of course, the NFHS does the same thing, but that isn't good enough for BillyMac. He wants it defined within the rules book.

Additionally, our point of contention in this thread involves when this action may be penalized under NFHS rules. The NFHS specifies that it must be while being violated. The NCAA rule is obviously different, and perhaps better, in that it puts no time limit upon the officials to recognize the infraction. The NFHS rule isn't written that way.

Ah, I see. Got you. Good stuff in here.

From a textual standpoint, I can see the distinction from NCAA and NFHS interpretation of the rule. But I think when you look too deep into the rules you can become a slave to them. I do not think the NFHS rule is meant to suggest that if 6 guys are on the court and the ball goes out of bounds, we cannot penalize the 6 guys on the court during that dead ball. That would be a nonsensical interpretation, in my opinion - and one with little (if any) rationale behind it.

I think the NCAA rules lend themselves to the NFHS rules where the rules/case book are silent on certain issues and there is no explicitly marked distinction.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by scanfocustarget

I do not think the NFHS rule is meant to suggest that if 6 guys are on the court and the ball goes out of bounds, we cannot penalize the 6 guys on the court during that dead ball.

Agree. But I would feel better if the NFHS defined participating.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree. But I would feel better if the NFHS defined participating.

Really???

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by deecee

Really???

I respect Nevadaref's opinion. If he feels strongly that the rules never allow officials to penalize six team members "playing" during dead balls (all dead balls), then there must be some grain of truth to that, and it's definitely worth exploring and debating. I disagree with him, but I don't have enough evidence to fully back up my claim that officials may penalize six team members "playing" during some dead balls. I believe that his evidence is on shaky ground, just like mine is.

"Some" dead ball situations:

Multiple substitutions. All substitutes report and are legally beckoned. Extra team member is confused and stays on court, unnoticed by everybody. Ball put into play. Quick foul occurs. No substitutions. One and one free throws awarded. First free throw made. No substitutions. Extra team member discovered by officials (who don't know when the extra team member entered) during dead ball, clock stopped, after first free throw made while the ball is in the hands of the lead official.

The last Team A free throw attempt is successful. The clock hasn't started. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped.

Team A scores a field goal. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is running.

NFHS 10-1-6: A team shall not: Have more than five team members participating simultaneously. If discovered while being violated.

"Participating"?

Are six team members moving into positions to set up a full court press "participating"?

Are six team members, many of whom have just tried to get a rebound during the first one and one attempt that was successful, and whom have now returned to their positions to await a second free throw attempt, "participating"?

Stupid NFHS rules editors.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by scanfocustarget

NCAA

I'm not an NCAA official, but I did find this (below) on my hard drive (no date, sorry)

NCAA Bulletin
In a recent game, six players participated in the game for one team. Several officials and administrators asked for clarification and we are releasing the following play situation:

SITUATION: Team A has six players on the playing court when the ball is made live with five seconds remaining in the game. A1’s successful field goal attempt is in the air when the time expires ending the game. Immediately after the expiration of time and before the officials have left the playing court, one of the officials observes that Team A had six players on the court when the basket was scored. What is the correct ruling?

RULING: The field goal shall count because A6 became a player when the ball became alive (Rule 3-4.1.c). However, the game has not ended since the officials have not left the court, which ends their jurisdiction and approves the score. The officials should award Team B two free throws and the game will continue with an overtime period if both free throws are successful (Rule 2-4.4, 5-7.7. and 10-2.6).

Further Comment: Rule 10-2.6 requires that the sixth player participate when the ball is alive. There is no time limit within which the officials have to recognize and penalize this technical foul. However, the officials must see the violation occur or have personal knowledge that it did occur in order to penalize the infraction. A monitor may not be used to obtain such knowledge (Rule 10-2.6, 2-13.2 and 5-7.7).

Hopefully this clarification will assist officials with the understanding and application of these rules. Thank you for your attention to this information.

At the very least, this should emphasis why officials must take their time, and do everything that they can possibly do, using good mechanics, to prevent situations like these from happening.

[BillyMac]

(2011-12)10.2.2 SITUATION: During a live ball and with the clock running, substitute A6
enters the court. RULING: A technical foul is charged if recognized by an official
before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball.

10.5.3 SITUATION: A5 has just received his/her fifth foul of the game. A5 (a) is erroneously permitted to remain in the game for another two minutes before the scorer realizes the mistake; or (b) leaves the game after the coach is notified of the disqualification. At the intermission between the third and fourth quarter, A5 reports as a substitute and subsequently enters the game. RULING: In (a), as soon as the error is discovered, the player is removed from the game, no penalties are assessed. In (b), A5 will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes live. If detected prior to the ball becoming live, A5 would be directed to the bench and no penalty assessed unless the official deemed it was a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rules. If detected after the ball becomes live, it is a technical foul charged directly to the head coach resulting in the loss of coaching-box privileges. The player is immediately removed from the game and Team B is awarded two free-throws and the ball. (2-11-5 Note 2)

[bucky]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I think that we all can agree on that.


Citation please. You'll probably need a definition of "participating". Good luck with that.

So you're going to ignore the sixth team member in the following scenarios because the ball is dead?

The last Team A free throw attempt is successful. The clock hasn't started. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

Team A scores a field goal. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is running. What’s the call?

Please note that although I'm leaning toward penalizing six team members in some dead ball situations, I'm not 100% sure that I'm correct in doing so, certainly not as sure as some of you are that you can't penalize six team members in all dead ball situations.

Without a NFHS definition of "participating" none of us can be 100% sure what to do unless we make up stuff as we go along, or depend on situations that harken back to jump balls after every goal.

It most cases, if I saw this type of activity (6 players on court) during a dead ball, I would simply wait until the ball became live and then assess the T. Sometimes, and by that I mean rarely, it is best/easiest to adjudicate something that everyone would easily understand. After a made basket, the ball is dead. Think of the difference between blowing the whistle then and dealing with the 6 players (T or not?, explain to both coaches, get crew together, etc.) or waiting 1 second for an inbounder to get the ball making the ball live and then blowing the whistle. In the latter, everyone knows that a T is warranted and the adjudication is much easier. Not saying it is the absolute correct thing to do. Just thinking that after a made basket an official would have to be very quick to notice 6 players on the court before the ball is live. Unlikely to happen but if it did happen, then the patient whistle until the ball is live might be best for everyone.