6 on the Court -- unnoticed...

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

What does participating mean?

I've been searching for some solid documentation that verifies that "participating" only applies when the ball is live. As in, a team cannot be penalized unless the six players on the court was discovered only while the ball is live. If discovered while the ball is dead, there's no penalty.

To press that interpretation into all the rules where "participation" is mentioned seems to stretch the rule beyond it's intent. 10-4-1, for instance. Or 3-1-1 NOTE, or 4-14-1, or 10-1-1, or 10-3-1. All of those penalties would surely be enforced if discovered being done by a player on the court during a dead ball after any period of live ball action, it seems. Right?

There was an old casebook citation, 10.5.3, which gives credence to "no penalty UNTIL the ball becomes live", but it leaves room for issuing a penalty during a dead ball after that point, it seems:

10.5.3 SITUATION: A5 has just received his/her fifth foul of the game. A5 (a) is erroneously permitted to remain in the game for
another two minutes before the scorer realizes the mistake; or (b) leaves the game after the coach is notified of the
disqualification. At the intermission between the third and fourth quarter, A5 reports as a substitute and subsequently enters the
game. RULING: In (a), as soon as the error is discovered, the player is removed from the game, no penalties are assessed. In
(b), A5 will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes live. If detected prior to the ball becoming live, A5 would be directed
to the bench and no penalty assessed unless the official deemed it was a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rules. If detected
after the ball becomes live, it is a technical foul charged directly to the head coach resulting in the loss of coaching-box
privileges. The player is immediately removed from the game and Team B is awarded two free-throws and the ball. (2-11-5 Note
2)

[Freddy]

Just saw a similar thread from several years ago that helped clarify for me somewhat. There Billy contributed with this:
https://forum.officiating.com/basket...tml#post878664
But it still didn't equate "discovered while being violated" with "while ball is live." I guess I'm still hung up on that, unless something else was meant by that statement previously posted in this current thread.

[Nevadaref]

Find the rule which states when a substitute becomes a player IF THE ENTRY ISN'T LEGAL. It states when the ball becomes live. That is when the team member participates.

Additionally, there is the situation in which a team member with an illegal jersey (or not listed on the team roster) reports to the scorer as a substitute. If the scorer informs the officials of the problem at the time of the attempted entry, then the coach has the ability to withdraw the team member and avoid the penalty. This scenario was detailed in the NFHS Simplified & Illustrated book with the caption which read something like, "Number X won't participate."

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Find the rule which states when a substitute becomes a player IF THE ENTRY ISN'T LEGAL. It states when the ball becomes live. That is when the team member participates.

"If the entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live." I get that.
If, however, that entry were a sixth player and it was discovered after the next whistle?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Freddy

"If the entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live." I get that.
If, however, that entry were a sixth player and it was discovered after the next whistle?

Then it is too late to penalize the infraction, even though you know that it happened.
Keep this simple. A team member participates by becoming a player. The definition of a player is in the book along with how a team member becomes a player as well as ceases to be a player.
The six team members participating is a little cloudy because the extra member isn't a legal player, but is out on the floor when only players are permitted. That's actually the infraction and why we can't penalize when the ball isn't live such as during a lengthy susbstitution process with multiple members entering and exiting. We need a time when only players are allowed in order to penalize a non-player being on the court.
Certainly, there need to be clear demarcation points at which play starts and ends as well as for when it is too late to penalize things which happen yet were missed by the officials during the game. For participation, the NFHS has selected when the ball becomes live and dead as those points. Similar to correctable errors.
What you seem concerned about is the timing and want to penalize when the team members are still on the floor during the immediately ensuing dead ball period. It seems unfair to you as this point in time is so close to when the infraction occurred. So take it to the extreme. What about missing this during the final seconds of the second quarter and having it brought to your attention just prior to the jumpball for the first extra period? You obviously can't go back and you feel comfortable about that. Why? You know inherently there is a point at which it becomes too late, but you are just fuzzy as to when exactly that is.
For the NFHS, it is when the ball ceases being live. Now you know and need to make the mental shift to accept it.
That can be tough, but as I mentioned above, this is no different from the timeline for correctable errors. Once you pass the point of no return, it's over and you're done with it. It doesn't matter how soon after the deadline you catch the error or how egregious it was. Now apply the same mentality to six on the floor.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

For participation, the NFHS has selected when the ball becomes live and dead as those points.

I would love it if that was the case, but can you please cite a specific rule, or casebook play (other than the old casebook citation, 10.5.3)?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I would love it if that was the case, but can you please cite a specific rule, or casebook play (other than the old casebook citation, 10.5.3)?

I could cite several examples of play situations and their rulings, such as when the game begins, when a quarter begins, when a quarter ends, when a team may first utilize a time-out, etc. However, the individual situations aren't what's instructive. We are seeking the guiding principle for all such cases. So we need to inquire what they all have in common. The principle is that game play occurs during a live ball and has been halted when the ball is dead. You must understand this basic premise, first and foremost. After that everything else falls into place.

There is a slight caveat for the brief dead-ball period which occurs following a made goal. One could contend that game play is occurring during this timeframe or one could argue that players are merely positioning themselves for the coming start of game play with the ensuing throw-in. The rule seems to be a hold-over from the days when a jumpball was conducted following each made goal. It could be changed with minimal impact upon the overall rules.

For examples, ask yourself what to do if a team sends six out for the opening jump? When do personal fouls occur? When may personal fouls not occur ? (Caveat: foul on or by an airborne shooter following what?--a made goal.) Now consider the reason behind these answers. Grasp the WHY and you understand.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The principle is that game play occurs during a live ball and has been halted when the ball is dead.

So a sixth team member could be on the court during some dead balls (between free throws, or immediately after a goal, both dead ball situations), and you would simply send the sixth team member off the court without penalty because they are not, by your definition, participating?

(Note: I don't have an answer, I'm just asking.)