No try, ball dead on foul

[nolanjj68]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Sure it is. A goal is not necessarily a try. If it is not a try or act of shooting, the ball becomes dead immediately on the expiration of time or on a whistle. If it is a try in such cases, the dead ball is delayed until try ends. If a player is in the act of shooting, the dead ball is delayed (on whistles for defensive fouls) until the try ends.

The difference between a try that results in a goal and a non-try that results in a goal is all about intent.

Ok I stand corrected on the scenario where a foul is occurring. But take that away, no foul occurring, if the ball just bounces off someone and goes in the basket (as Billy Mac's example illustrated), that basket should be counted and intent does not matter.

If we apply NFHS to the LeBron case the other night, given the luxury of several replays it looks like the foul occurs slightly before the pass goes in the basket. Technically the ball is dead and the basket should not be scored. However in real time I think it would be difficult to tell that difference and I think I would say they were simultaneous and I would count the basket and award the ball to white on the end line for the foul. My 2c.

[nolanjj68]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Back to the original question, which is: What, if anything, causes a ball in flight to be dead in the NBA?

This is from the 2013-2014 NBA rule book.

Section IV—Dead Ball
a. The ball becomes dead and/or remains dead when the following occurs:
(1) Official blows his/her whistle
(2) Free throw which will not remain in play (free throw which will be followed by another free throw, technical, flagrant, etc.)
(3) Following a successful field goal or free throw that will remain in play, until player possession out-of-bounds. Contact which is NOT considered unsportsmanlike shall be ignored. (Rule 12A—Section V—i)
(4) Time expires for the end of any period

EXCEPTION: If a field goal attempt is in flight, the ball becomes dead when the goal is made, missed or touched by an offensive player.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by nolanjj68

Ok I stand corrected on the scenario where a foul is occurring. But take that away, no foul occurring, if the ball just bounces off someone and goes in the basket (as Billy Mac's example illustrated), that basket should be counted and intent does not matter.

A live ball that goes in the basket always counts (with one exception). Perhaps that is what you're getting at.

However, a ball that bounces off someone (or the floor) and into the basket isn't a try (at least not anymore). As such, the possibility of a delayed dead ball is over. That is not only for fouls but includes expiration of time (game clock or, when relevant, shot clock).

So, unless an intended try is in progress, no shot can be scored if the event occurs before the ball goes in the basket.

All that said, if there is any doubt as to whether it is a try or not, it IS a try.

[nolanjj68]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

A live ball that goes in the basket always counts (with one exception). Perhaps that is what you're getting at.

However, a ball that bounces off someone (or the floor) and into the basket isn't a try (at least not anymore). As such, the possibility of a delayed dead ball is over. That is not only for fouls but includes expiration of time (game clock or, when relevant, shot clock).

So, unless an intended try is in progress, no shot can be scored if the event occurs before the ball goes in the basket.

All that said, if there is any doubt as to whether it is a try or not, it IS a try.

Yes that is what I am getting at. Thanks for the clarification.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

A live ball that goes in the basket always counts (with one exception).

Please call on me.

No goal is scored if an untouched throwin goes through the basket.

https://youtu.be/-cDAqrywsHE

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Let the fun begin.

A1 passes the ball to A2, who isn't looking for the ball. The ball hits A2 on the shoulder, and bounces into the air ...

1) While the ball is in flight, before it goes into the basket, B3 fouls A3. The ball subsequently goes into the basket. Team A is not in the bonus. You make the call.

2) While the ball is in flight, before it goes into the basket, A3 fouls B3. The ball subsequently goes into the basket. Team B is not in the bonus. You make the call.

3) The ball is on the ring and B3 bats the ball off the ring. The ball does not go in the basket. You make the call.

4) While the ball is in flight, B3 touches the ball while it is in its downward flight, entirely above the basket ring level, outside the imaginary cylinder above the ring, and it has the possibility of entering the basket. The ball does not go in the basket. You make the call.

5) As the ball is bouncing off of A1's shoulder, B2 pushes A1, the ball subsequently goes into the basket. Team A is not in the bonus. You make the call.

6) As the ball is bouncing off of A1's shoulder, B3 pushes A3, the ball subsequently goes into the basket. Team A is not in the bonus. You make the call.

7) As the ball is bouncing off of A1's shoulder, A3 pushes B3, the ball subsequently goes into the basket. Team B is not in the bonus. You make the call.

8) While the ball is in flight, before it goes into the basket, the horn sounds to end the period. The ball subsequently goes into the basket. You make the call.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by deecee

Please stop.

Please back off the statement below:

Originally Posted by deecee

If a ball goes in the basket, and I'm officiating, then the intent was to score.

Please explain what statement of mine lead one to believe that I wouldn't count the basket (below):

Originally Posted by deecee

Team A shoots and misses, A1 goes to rebound but the ball bounces off his shoulder and go in the basket. Go ahead, cancel the goal. I'll love watching the youtube videos of you go viral.

Usually, the ball enters the basket as the result of a try, but sometimes it doesn't. When that rare event happens, it's important to understand the ramifications of the rule.

Originally Posted by just another ref

Billy's example is obviously an extreme one. But intent is obviously a question which sometimes must be answered.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

text text text

Sorry if I misunderstood you. It's tough sometimes when most of your posts are pages long and certain phrases are highlighted, along with your penchant for the absurd when it comes to what ifs. I'm sure in person you are very nice, but I would hope you would start summarizing your posts.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by deecee

Sorry if I misunderstood you.

As the young'uns say, no problem.

Originally Posted by deecee

... absurd when it comes to what ifs.

The extreme situations in my earlier post test an official's knowledge of the definition of a try, and the ramifications of a ball going in the basket when there is no try involved. These situations also demonstrate the need for an official's understanding of continuous motion, basket interference, goaltending, and the end of a period.

How often does one see these extreme situations? Certainly, not very often, but an understanding of these extreme situations can lead one to become more proficient in applying rules to more common situations that we see all the time.

Check out these thought provoking situations:

A) A1's untouched throwin is in the cylinder above the A's basket ring when B1 touches the ball. The ball does not go in the basket. You make the call.

B) A1's untouched throwin is on its downward flight, entirely above the basket ring level, outside the imaginary cylinder above the ring, with the possibility of the ball entering A's basket, when B1 touches the ball. The ball does not go in the basket. You make the call.

[deecee]

1) BI - score 2 points - I wish I could find my rule book to verify this one.
2) Nothing

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by deecee

1) BI - score 2 points - I wish I could find my rule book to verify this one.
2) Nothing

Give the man a cigar.

Point? It does matter whether it's basket interference, or goaltending. They are not the same thing, and thus, do not have the same penalty.

It's also interesting that a player can't score off a throwin, but the basket can be awarded.