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Old Tue Sep 01, 2009, 12:21am
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Live Ball Foul Called as Dead Ball

I moved last year and I've hooked up with a crew of some local guys who average in the 80s on their annual test. Most of our JV games I WH, and for our V games I'm the 6th man so I go where I'm needed, which this year has me at WH for about half of our games.


One of the plays that they don't get is that they always want to call Illegal Formation a Dead Ball Foul. When A lines up with 6 on the line they kill it at the snap. I've tried to tell them over and over again, but they're not getting it. I've explained that it is a foul at the snap because nothing illegal happens before the ball is snapped, so this is a case where the snap "causes" the foul, but the ball is already live and no foul causes a live ball to become dead. They're stuck because Encroachment is a foul whenever it occurs, even though I've explained in HS that is a foul when it occurs not at the snap like NCAA. I've learned that their practice before I showed up was to call all fouls at the snap as dead ball fouls. Motion, Shift, Formation, all of it.

2 Questions.

1. Any ideas how I can help them?

2. In our JV and V games when they kill a play, what would you do?
Option 1. Wave off the flag and replay because of the IW.
Option 2. Enforce the foul which occurred prior to the IW because the IW came after the snap (and after the foul)
Option 3. ? ? ?
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Old Tue Sep 01, 2009, 05:17am
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Only thing I can think of is to get them (individually or as a group) to explain and give rule reference as to why they are blowing it.
Dig out an A.R. which clearly states they are wrong and give it to them AFTER they think and dig in the rules.

As for the IW - I personally think that if they have blown it dead after the snap, you need to enforce the penalty, but if they blow it with the snap I would wave it off.
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Old Tue Sep 01, 2009, 05:49am
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Get them together and take a night off to go see another, veteran crew, work. Pick a crew that you know is reliable and have a "boys night out". Maybe they see enough to learn what they are doing wrong.
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Old Tue Sep 01, 2009, 06:05am
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Shop for a new crew. Those guys will never get anything if they can't handle that.
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Old Tue Sep 01, 2009, 06:28am
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You haven't reported a crucial piece of info. Do they recognize their error?

If not, then they're stubborn and it would be easier to find a new crew than to correct them.

If so, then it's only a matter of changing their habits. Get the whistle farther from their mouths at the snap so that an extra decision is required. Remind them during every break in the action.

Finally, enforce it correctly: it would be both a foul and an inadvertent whistle (4-2-3d). The defense probably won't realize that they've been ripped off (since they'll get the advantage of the penalty), but that's the right way to handle it. Doing it that way will also reinforce the new habits.
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Old Tue Sep 01, 2009, 08:03am
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From the 2009 NFHS Handbook:

False Starts and Illegal Motion
A false start includes a shift or a feigned charge which simulates action at the
snap, or any act clearly intended to cause Team B to encroach. It is a false start if any Team A player on his line between the snapper and the player on the end of their line, and who has placed his hand on or near the ground, moves his hand or makes any quick movement.

A false start is closely related to encroachment. It is a dead-ball foul. A false
start occurs prior to the snap. After the ball is ready for play and all players are ready for the snap, no offensive player shall make a quick or jerky movement before the snap. Any such motion is a false start. It is a false start whether or not the defense is drawn into the neutral zone. The purpose of the restriction is to discourage action designed to cause defensive encroachment.

Illegal motion is different from a false start as it is motion at the snap. It
becomes a foul simultaneously with the snap and is a live-ball foul. Play
continues and the offended team is given the option of accepting the result of the play or the penalty from the previous spot.


No more than one offensive player may be in motion at the snap. The player
in motion may not be moving toward the opponent’s goal line at the snap. If an end goes in motion he must be at least 5 yards behind his line at the snap unless he stopped for at least one second and established himself as a backfield player.
================ pg 58 of the NFHS handbook ===========


So there is ONE of the fouls they are killing explained.
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Old Tue Sep 01, 2009, 10:41am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reffing Rev. View Post
One of the plays that they don't get is that they always want to call Illegal Formation a Dead Ball Foul. When A lines up with 6 on the line they kill it at the snap.
20 yrs. ago I even saw that mistake in the NFL, called against the 49ers, who deliberately lined up that way intending to shift. So it's not just JV officials.

I read that a year or two ago NFL changed their rule to now make that a correct call!

Robert
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Old Tue Sep 01, 2009, 04:40pm
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Quote:
guys who average in the 80s on their annual test
Is that good or bad?
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Old Wed Sep 02, 2009, 06:18am
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Suppose it depends on whether it is an open book test or not as well as if it was an independently done test or a "groupthink" test.
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Old Wed Sep 02, 2009, 04:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXMike View Post
Suppose it depends on whether it is an open book test or not as well as if it was an independently done test or a "groupthink" test.
Yeah....we're open book here in WI and I can't think of a time in 15+ years I've gotten worse than a 92 or 93. No open book and then you're doing incredibly well....IMO.
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Old Wed Sep 02, 2009, 04:57pm
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If my entire crew only scored in the 80's on the rules test (we are closed book, individual, use the NFHS part 2 test) I'd be worried.
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Old Thu Sep 03, 2009, 09:08am
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1. Any ideas how I can help them?


Hell, fire and brimstone, Rev....grace would not apply here
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Old Fri Sep 04, 2009, 01:39pm
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Give them this one (funny - this came up in a game twice this week!).

A has two guys in motion at the snap. The officials kills the play right after the snap (an error, yes). Before he kills it and rules it a dead ball foul, the snap is fumbled and B recovers. One official (an old vet) says there obviously was a lot of confusion on the part of the offense so you may as well kill the play since you're going to have a foul anyway. I simply pointed out that by killing the play (and going against the rule) he just took the ball away from B. He said, "Oh, I never thought of that."

Here's the way I look at it. If you're gonna do this job, you might as well do it right. If you don't want to do it right - then don't do it.
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Old Mon Sep 07, 2009, 12:38am
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With illegal formations, I would tell them that A could always shift into a correct formation and if A does not, it would be a foul occuring simultaneously with the snap. Then, cite the fundamental that no live ball foul causes the ball to become dead.
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Old Wed Sep 09, 2009, 12:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike L View Post
If my entire crew only scored in the 80's on the rules test (we are closed book, individual, use the NFHS part 2 test) I'd be worried.
That's exactly what I was thinking. This was one of my worst scores because I didn't have time to study but still got a 94.
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