No try, ball dead on foul

[just another ref]

Tonight in game 3 Lebron tried to lob it into the post, Love was fouled while the ball was in the air, and it went it. I think everybody in the building agreed it was a pass. Announcers were saying it didn't matter, you can't judge intent, etc. and resident NBA officiating expert Steve Javey agreed it was the right call. So the NBA rule is different then? You obviously can/must judge intent at times in all levels. So, in NFHS, the basket doesn't count.

[Jay R]

Most times NBA rules differ. They counted the basket and Love then shot one free throw. Would you ever award one free throw to a player who is being fouled while his teammate is in the act of shooting in NFHS? That is the NBA rule.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Tonight in game 3 Lebron tried to lob it into the post, Love was fouled while the ball was in the air, and it went it. I think everybody in the building agreed it was a pass. Announcers were saying it didn't matter, you can't judge intent, etc. and resident NBA officiating expert Steve Javey agreed it was the right call. So the NBA rule is different then? You obviously can/must judge intent at times in all levels. So, in NFHS, the basket doesn't count.

If a ball goes in the basket, and I'm officiating, then the intent was to score. I'm not smart enough to judge intent on a made basket. It's tough enough for borderline INT/flagrant fouls.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by deecee

If a ball goes in the basket, and I'm officiating, then the intent was to score. I'm not smart enough to judge intent on a made basket. It's tough enough for borderline INT/flagrant fouls.

How do you ever judge if a player is in the act of shooting when fouled?

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

How do you ever judge if a player is in the act of shooting when fouled?

You had to ask that didn't you. You are responsible for what's to come.

[nolanjj68]

Originally Posted by deecee

If a ball goes in the basket, and I'm officiating, then the intent was to score. I'm not smart enough to judge intent on a made basket. It's tough enough for borderline INT/flagrant fouls.

I don't believe intent is even under consideration when scoring a basket.

Section 1. ART. 1 . . . A goal is made when a live ball enters the basket from above and remains in or passes through. No goal is scored if an untouched throw-in goes through the basket.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by nolanjj68

I don't believe intent is even under consideration when scoring a basket.

Section 1. ART. 1 . . . A goal is made when a live ball enters the basket from above and remains in or passes through. No goal is scored if an untouched throw-in goes through the basket.

Sure it is. A goal is not necessarily a try. If it is not a try or act of shooting, the ball becomes dead immediately on the expiration of time or on a whistle. If it is a try in such cases, the dead ball is delayed until try ends. If a player is in the act of shooting, the dead ball is delayed (on whistles for defensive fouls) until the try ends.

The difference between a try that results in a goal and a non-try that results in a goal is all about intent.

[nolanjj68]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Sure it is. A goal is not necessarily a try. If it is not a try or act of shooting, the ball becomes dead immediately on the expiration of time or on a whistle. If it is a try in such cases, the dead ball is delayed until try ends. If a player is in the act of shooting, the dead ball is delayed (on whistles for defensive fouls) until the try ends.

The difference between a try that results in a goal and a non-try that results in a goal is all about intent.

Ok I stand corrected on the scenario where a foul is occurring. But take that away, no foul occurring, if the ball just bounces off someone and goes in the basket (as Billy Mac's example illustrated), that basket should be counted and intent does not matter.

If we apply NFHS to the LeBron case the other night, given the luxury of several replays it looks like the foul occurs slightly before the pass goes in the basket. Technically the ball is dead and the basket should not be scored. However in real time I think it would be difficult to tell that difference and I think I would say they were simultaneous and I would count the basket and award the ball to white on the end line for the foul. My 2c.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by nolanjj68

Ok I stand corrected on the scenario where a foul is occurring. But take that away, no foul occurring, if the ball just bounces off someone and goes in the basket (as Billy Mac's example illustrated), that basket should be counted and intent does not matter.

A live ball that goes in the basket always counts (with one exception). Perhaps that is what you're getting at.

However, a ball that bounces off someone (or the floor) and into the basket isn't a try (at least not anymore). As such, the possibility of a delayed dead ball is over. That is not only for fouls but includes expiration of time (game clock or, when relevant, shot clock).

So, unless an intended try is in progress, no shot can be scored if the event occurs before the ball goes in the basket.

All that said, if there is any doubt as to whether it is a try or not, it IS a try.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by deecee

If a ball goes in the basket, and I'm officiating, then the intent was to score.

A1 passes the ball to A2, who isn't looking for the ball. The ball hits A2 on the shoulder, and bounces into the air, eventually passing through the basket. No complicating factors like end of period, foul, etc.

The ball went in the basket. Was there an intent to score?

4-41 SHOOTING, TRY, TAP
ART. 1 The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try
or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne
shooter.
ART. 2 A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three
points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket. A player is trying for goal
when the player has the ball and in the official’s judgment is throwing or
attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player’s hand
as a foul could prevent release of the ball.
ART. 3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually
precedes the release of the ball.
ART. 4 The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain the
throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball
becomes dead.
ART. 5 A tap for goal is the contacting of the ball with any part of a player’s
hand(s) in an attempt to direct the ball into his/her basket.
ART. 6 A tap shall be considered the same as a try for field goal, except as
in 5-2-5.
ART. 7 The tap starts when the player’s hand(s) touches the ball.
ART. 8 The tap ends in exactly the same manner as a try.

Now, just for fun, who wants to talk about complicating factors while the ball is in flight toward the basket?

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

A1 passes the ball to A2, blah blah blah

Please don't waste our time with this stuff. Team A shoots and misses, A1 goes to rebound but the ball bounces off his shoulder and go in the basket.

Go ahead, cancel the goal. I'll love watching the youtube videos of you go viral.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by deecee

Please don't waste our time with this stuff. Team A shoots and misses, A1 goes to rebound but the ball bounces off his shoulder and go in the basket.

Go ahead, cancel the goal. I'll love watching the youtube videos of you go viral.

Billy's example is obviously an extreme one. But intent is obviously a question which sometimes must be answered. A1 leaps in the air and is clobbered before he can release the ball. You must decide whether to award 2 shots or not. So why is the OP any different? You must decide whether to count the basket or wave it off.

[just another ref]

Back to the original question, which is: What, if anything, causes a ball in flight to be dead in the NBA?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by deecee

Team A shoots and misses, A1 goes to rebound but the ball bounces off his shoulder and go in the basket.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Now, just for fun, who wants to talk about complicating factors while the ball is in flight toward the basket?

Originally Posted by just another ref

A1 leaps in the air and is clobbered before he can release the ball.

Let the fun begin.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

A1 passes the ball to A2, who isn't looking for the ball. The ball hits A2 on the shoulder, and bounces into the air, eventually passing through the basket. No complicating factors like end of period, foul, etc.

Originally Posted by deecee

Team A shoots and misses, A1 goes to rebound but the ball bounces off his shoulder and go in the basket. Go ahead, cancel the goal.

NFHS rules. No complicating factors like end of period, foul, etc. Why (in either situation above) would I cancel this goal? Why would any official even think about canceling this goal? Why would deecee think that I would cancel this goal and become a YouTube viral sensation? Why would deecee think that any official worth his salt on this Forum would even consider canceling this goal?