Live Ball Treated as Dead Ball Foul

[GPC2]

In yesterday's scrimmage we had a play that I need clarification on. A21 broke off a very long (60+ yards) run. I was the LJ, and on the other side of the field and (apparently) well behind the play, R flagged A72 for a personal foul at A's 40-yard line - basically A72 pancake blocked a B player that had no play on the ball. The R insisted that this was a live ball foul to be administered from the spot of the foul, myself and the BJ thought that this was a live ball - treated as a dead ball foul. When I got home and read my book I didn't really get the clarification I hoped to get.

Rule 9-4-3b states that No player or nonplayer shall charge into or throw an opponent to the ground after he is obviously out of the play, or after the ball is clearly dead either in or out of bounds.

This obviously is the play that we had, and it is no doubt a personal foul - BUT where is the spot for administration? It seems to me that the R was correct....

[Robert Goodman]

Well, there is a pragmatic way of handling it if somone other than R had flagged it: "You're not absolutely sure the foul occurred before the ball became dead, are you?"

Robert

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by GPC2

A21 broke off a very long (60+ yards) run. I was the LJ, and on the other side of the field and (apparently) well behind the play, R flagged A72 for a personal foul at A's 40-yard line - basically A72 pancake blocked a B player that had no play on the ball.

CANADIAN RULING:

This is UR. Our handy poem comes into play:

See the Foul,
Find the Ball,
Make the Call.

This foul is applied from Point Ball Held is the LTG was reached, and Point Ball Held or Point of Last Scrimmage in the LTG was not reached (B option). The calling officials when (s)he sees the foul, is to find where the ball is, then throw the flag. Report the PBH to the R.

1. If LTG was reached:
   • 15y from PBH
2. if LTG was not reached:
   • 15y from PLS, down repeated, OR
   • 15y from PBH, downs continue

[Tom Hinrichs]

There are a couple of things that you may want to consider. First, you have to penalize this act- it is a matter of safety.

Whether or not the ball crossed the goal line at the time of the hit is pretty subjective. You don't want a game changing call here-so taking it as a dead-ball foul and penalizing the foul on the kickoff or try is an option.

On the other hand, bringing back a long run for a cheap shot certainly makes the point.

You also might want to consider ejecting the offending player-if the act was flagrant.

[Texas Aggie]

In basketball, supposedly simultaneous fouls and violations (i.e. traveling and a defensive foul) are not specifically covered by the rules, so the official has to decide which happened first: the violation or the foul. Here, the R needs to make the same decision: which happened first -- the TD making it a dead ball or not. I don't think you want to get into an equitable discussion on here or try to split the baby. Get everyone together and decide.

[KWH]

Restated GPC2:

A) If the foul occurred while the ball was live (prior to the ball crossing the goal line) it is a live ball foul penalized from the spot of the foul, and the touchdown is cancelled.

However...
B) If the foul occurred after the ball was dead (after the ball crossed the goal line) it is a dead ball foul penalized from the succeeding spot (which is the try). The ensuing kickoff is not an option in this situation as this was a dead ball foul. Sorry Tom Hinrichs but: All dead ball fouls are enforced from the succeeding spot, which in this situation the succeeding spot is the try. Dead ball fouls are not applicable in rule 8-2-2.

It appears your White Hat elected to use option A which certainly was a valid option.

[Warrenkicker]

The option for enforcement on the kickoff is gone not only because it was a dead-ball foul but also because it was a foul by A. We can only carry over fouls on scoring plays committed by the opponent of the scoring team. If B does it then we are either marking it off on the try or the kickoff based on when it happened. But if A does it we are either marking it off from the spot of the foul or on the try.

[Tom Hinrichs]

What are the live ball fouls that are enforced as dead ball fouls?

[Ed Maeder]

USC during a live ball is treated as a dead ball foul. So if there was another live ball foul against the same team that had the USC foul, both would be enforced.

[KWH]

Originally Posted by Tom Hinrichs

What are the live ball fouls that are enforced as dead ball fouls?

Tom-

I think I did a crummy job of making my point. So I will try again.

In GPC2's play if the foul by A72 is enforced as a dead ball foul, it can not be enforced on the ensuing kickoff as only live ball fols can be enforced on the ensuing kickoff.

However if the foul by A72 is enforced as a live ball foul, the touchdown is cancelled and the penaly is enforced from the spot of the foul.

So my original point was there is no (current) method of enforcing A72's foul on the ensuing kickoff...

-Kevin