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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 20, 2017, 09:56pm
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 21, 2017, 12:18am
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I dont say this to be mean...but at some point you have to watch more basketball. This is a block and its not even close. You can talk about LGP all day but if you see enough basketball your not asking the question.

She may have had LGP but offense went other way. She didnt maintain it...Fact is thisisnt close.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 21, 2017, 12:45am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
NFHS R4-S23-A3c (and the wording would be the same for NCAA Men's/Women's and FIBA) says:

After the initial legal guarding position is obtained the guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.

Moving laterally means the paths of the defensive player and the offensive player are parallel to each other.


1) At time T0: B-32 is at point B0; W-4 is at point W0; and W-4 has obtained a LGP with respect to B32.

2) At time T1: B-32 is at point B1; W-4 is at point W1; B-32 changes her direction of movement thereby establishing a new straight line of movement called Li32 toward point B3; and W-4 changes her direction of movement thereby establishing a new straight line of movement called Li4 toward point W3.

3) B-32 moves along Li32 and W-4 moves along Li4 until they come into contact with each other at time T2. W-4 and B-32 contact each other where lines L32 and W4 intersect at point PI.

4) If the angle formed by W1-PI-B1 is equal to 0 degrees but less than or equal to 90 degrees then B-32 is responsible for the contact. If the angle formed by W1-P1-B1 is greater than 90 degrees then W-4 is responsible for the contact.


MTD, Sr.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
I dont say this to be mean...but at some point you have to watch more basketball. This is a block and its not even close. You can talk about LGP all day but if you see enough basketball your not asking the question.

She may have had LGP but offense went other way. She didn't maintain it...Fact is this isn't close.

Big Cat:

I do not know who you were telling to watch more basketball but I have watched more basketball, probably more than any other person on this forum: The 2016-17 season is my 46th year officiating boys'/girls' H.S. I officiated women's college basketball from 1974 to 2008, men's jr. college basketball from 1993 to 2008, and was a USA Basketball Referee from 1993 to 2003. I have officiated over 40 AAU, YBOA, and USSSA boys' and girls' national championship tournaments.

I will be the first that this play was very close to being a bang-bang play but if one referees the defense, and I were a betting man I would bet apples to oranges, that W-4 is moving obliquely away from B-32 at the moment of contact (see my post above).

I have been fortunate to have two of the foremost experts on guarding and screening (block /charge) at the H.S. level in the U.S. as personal friends: The late Ed Ferrigno of Connecticut (who was responsible for the NFHS changing the word "obtain" to "establish" in the guarding definition, and I helped him when he gave seminars on guarding and screening several times) and the immediate past national NFHS Chairman Peter Webb. I am the "bald old geezer" on this forum and I think that I am second to none with the application of the guarding and screening rules.

Just because B-32 went the other way, does not means nothing because W-4 is allowed to move to maintain her LGP. Please review NFHS 4-4-S23-3c as well as what I have posted above in red.

MTD, Sr.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 21, 2017, 12:57am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
Big Cat:

I do not know who you were telling to watch more basketball but I have watched more basketball, probably more than any other person on this forum: The 2016-17 season is my 46th year officiating boys'/girls' H.S. I officiated women's college basketball from 1974 to 2008, men's jr. college basketball from 1993 to 2008, and was a USA Basketball Referee from 1993 to 2003. I have officiated over 40 AAU, YBOA, and USSSA boys' and girls' national championship tournaments.

I will be the first that this play was very close to being a bang-bang play but if one referees the defense, and I were a betting man I would bet apples to oranges, that W-4 is moving obliquely away from B-32 at the moment of contact (see my post above).

I have been fortunate to have two of the foremost experts on guarding and screening (block /charge) at the H.S. level in the U.S. as personal friends: The late Ed Ferrigno of Connecticut (who was responsible for the NFHS changing the word "obtain" to "establish" in the guarding definition, and I helped him when he gave seminars on guarding and screening several times) and the immediate past national NFHS Chairman Peter Webb. I am the "bald old geezer" on this forum and I think that I am second to none with the application of the guarding and screening rules.

Just because B-32 went the other way, does not means nothing because W-4 is allowed to move to maintain her LGP. Please review NFHS 4-4-S23-3c as well as what I have posted above in red.

MTD, Sr.
I was talking about the poster. However, its a block. Whether you have 1 year or 50 years in. It is not even close. You can read a written rule and try to make it so but it just isnt. And with all due respect. It isnt close, imo. Each will have to make there own decision.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 21, 2017, 01:00am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
I was talking about the poster. However, its a block. Whether you have 1 year or 50 years in. It is not even close. You can read a written rule and try to make it so but it just isnt. And with all due respect. It isnt close, imo. Each will have to make there own decision.


This. ^^^
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 21, 2017, 10:04am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
NFHS R4-S23-A3c (and the wording would be the same for NCAA Men's/Women's and FIBA) says:

After the initial legal guarding position is obtained the guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.

Moving laterally means the paths of the defensive player and the offensive player are parallel to each other.


1) At time T0: B-32 is at point B0; W-4 is at point W0; and W-4 has obtained a LGP with respect to B32.

2) At time T1: B-32 is at point B1; W-4 is at point W1; B-32 changes her direction of movement thereby establishing a new straight line of movement called Li32 toward point B3; and W-4 changes her direction of movement thereby establishing a new straight line of movement called Li4 toward point W3.

3) B-32 moves along Li32 and W-4 moves along Li4 until they come into contact with each other at time T2. W-4 and B-32 contact each other where lines L32 and W4 intersect at point PI.

4) If the angle formed by W1-PI-B1 is equal to 0 degrees but less than or equal to 90 degrees then B-32 is responsible for the contact. If the angle formed by W1-P1-B1 is greater than 90 degrees then W-4 is responsible for the contact.


MTD, Sr.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
I was talking about the poster. However, its a block. Whether you have 1 year or 50 years in. It is not even close. You can read a written rule and try to make it so but it just isn't. And with all due respect. It isn't close, imo. Each will have to make there own decision.

Tell me what made you judge this to be a block by W-4?

MTD, Sr.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 21, 2017, 10:49am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
Tell me what made you judge this to be a block by W-4?

MTD, Sr.
The video. This is why I mentioned to the poster to watch more plays and see how they're called by experienced referees. I'm guessing he's reading the words in rules and seeing things like your four paragraphs earlier. Head spins.

Watch plays and see what's being called.
See earlier post 32 and Camron's.

Last edited by BigCat; Sat Jan 21, 2017 at 11:14am.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 21, 2017, 11:06am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
Tell me what made you judge this to be a block by W-4?

MTD, Sr.
As Camron said earlier-- the offensive player changed her path and the offense did not legally get into that new path.

4-23 "Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent."
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 21, 2017, 11:50am
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She was not in LGP at the time of contact by coming forward to the dribbler.

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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 22, 2017, 12:11am
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With all due respect to MTD's credentials on guarding and screening I'm with Big Cat on this. This is a pretty straight forward block with the only reason I can think someone would say its at all close is b/c she gets the pass off pretty easily and watching it in slo mo. But she clearly didnt do enough to maintain LGP.

And again, with all due respect, if a coach is asking about these plays in order to "teach his players" then I would agree with the suggestion that he/she should watch more basketball.

In the videos I'm seeing posted its pretty easy to see what the better defensive fundamentals should be stressed by a coach here.

Last edited by VaTerp; Sun Jan 22, 2017 at 12:23am.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 22, 2017, 08:37am
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Put me in the camp of:

1.) I probably wouldn't put a whistle on the play....

But if I was mandated to:

2.) Block. Blue changes her path and the defender tries to move in an effort to maintain her position but ends up not being able to...and moves fowrad into the dribbler. Honestly it's not even close with regard to block/charge IMO.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 23, 2017, 12:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by APG View Post
Put me in the camp of:

1.) I probably wouldn't put a whistle on the play....
I think that's going to depend upon the game but I definitely see what you're saying.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 23, 2017, 12:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by APG View Post
Put me in the camp of:

1.) I probably wouldn't put a whistle on the play....

But if I was mandated to:

2.) Block. Blue changes her path and the defender tries to move in an effort to maintain her position but ends up not being able to...and moves fowrad into the dribbler. Honestly it's not even close with regard to block/charge IMO.
I just don't think this is at a high enough level where I'm letting this alone. I'm assuming this is varsity ball, but...

If I don't call this block, the defensive coach is going to be in my ear wondering why it wasn't a charge. The offensive coach.......you get the picture. Just easier to call the block and move on. Especially out in the open where the defender is thrown back in this manner.

Would be nice to see the C hustle to the FTLE rather than walk towards it, though.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 23, 2017, 01:08pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
I just don't think this is at a high enough level where I'm letting this alone. I'm assuming this is varsity ball, but...

If I don't call this block, the defensive coach is going to be in my ear wondering why it wasn't a charge. The offensive coach.......you get the picture. Just easier to call the block and move on. Especially out in the open where the defender is thrown back in this manner.

Would be nice to see the C hustle to the FTLE rather than walk towards it, though.
Agreed. In a game with bigger, stronger, more skilled players you can pass on this.

But based on the videos, this looks like a level of play where this needs to be called.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 23, 2017, 01:22pm
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Originally Posted by so cal lurker View Post
While I think that would have been called a carry back when I played, if that was called a carry today, there would be a lot of calls in the games I watch. It appears to me (from the comfort of the stands) that just as with determining when a dribble ends for determining a travel, this is a call that has swung significantly to favor offensive players.
While I'm not calling this a carry, I disagree that if we started calling it we'd be calling a lot. The players would adjust fairly quickly.

It's just not something my leadership wants called that closely, so I'm not watching it that closely.
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