Block or Charge or No Call (Video)

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Btw, the "speed" thing was about how fast the dribbler is moving (which, yes, is wrong). Not about time and distance.

Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk

The speed of the dribbler has nothing to do with the rule.

[ballgame99]

This is a block 100/100 times. As a coaching point, I would suggest you teach that defender to move laterally in a slide to maintain her LGP. If she arrives at the point of contact facing the ballhandler (ie the ballhandler's shoulder hits the defender in the chest or close to it) you would get your player control call. But in this case the defender turns sideways in attempt to beat her to the spot and loses her LGP and never regains it.

[VaTerp]

This is a CLEAR block. The defender does not maintain LGP and as a result of her movement her shoulder ends up in the path of the offensive player at the time of contact.o

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

That said, I still have a block because I feel that when the dribbler changed direction, she did so quick enough that the defender was no longer in her path and had to reobtain LGP...which she didn't.

Agreed. Now everyone agree with me or I start deleting posts and close the thread.

Oh wait sorry, forgot where I was for a minute there.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The speed of the dribbler has nothing to do with the rule.

Hence the "which is wrong" part of the post

Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk

[Pantherdreams]

Once you establish LGP you may move laterally to maintain LGP.

Moving laterally does not guarantee you maintain LGP.

In the case of the video the lateral movement taken by the defender changed the defense's angle and stopped the defender from facing the ball carrier and gave the dribbler an attack line that the defense no longer had LGP established for. So shoulder to shoulder contact results in a block.


If that is too convoluted.

BLOCK.

[xyrph]

Thanks for the answers guys.

It seems that everyone is in agreement that this video portrays a block by the defender.

I truly want to understand this. My understanding (admittedly incomplete) has been that to establish LGP the defender's torso must be facing the ball handler and both feet must be on the ground. for how long, I don't know, but long enough to establish the right to the floor space, an instant.

My understanding continues that after achieving LGP the defender can move backward or laterally (but not forward toward the ball handler) and still maintain LGP.

But this notion that they cannot turn is unfamiliar to me. Are we saying that after establishing LGP that a defender cannot turn to brace for impact? Let's say that the defender did not leave her spot on the floor after establishing LGP at a particular location, but simply pivoted in place to brace for impact from a "hard-charging" ball handler, and she gets displaced from the impact (pushed backward, perhaps even thrown to the ground by the impact), this is a block, because she changed her orientation in-place?

If this is the case, please give the rule reference. I want to understand this because this is contrary to what I've always understood.

As an aside, what if we take this to the extreme? A defender is stationary in the line from the ball handler to the basket, but has her back to the defender, and the ball handler decides to dribble directly through the defender (who is facing 180 degrees from the ball handler) and displaces the defender noticeably, what is the rule here?

Thank you for your guidance.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

Once you establish LGP you may move laterally to maintain LGP.

Moving laterally does not guarantee you maintain LGP.

In the case of the video the lateral movement taken by the defender changed the defense's angle and stopped the defender from facing the ball carrier and gave the dribbler an attack line that the defense no longer had LGP established for. So shoulder to shoulder contact results in a block.


If that is too convoluted.

BLOCK.

I don't believe you have to face your opponent to maintain LGP... Just to establish.

Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk

[Rob1968]

Notably, we continue to use the word "establish" rather than the word "obtain" LGP. Many years ago, the NFHS decided to use the latter, because the former seemed to imply a process, of indeterminate duration. The intent of the change in verbiage was to emphasize that when guarding a moving opponent with the ball, there is no time or distance factor involved.
In the play under discussion, it seems that the necessary factors of the block/charge rule result in a correct call of block.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by xyrph

Let's say that the defender did not leave her spot on the floor after establishing LGP at a particular location, but simply pivoted in place to brace for impact from a "hard-charging" ball handler, and she gets displaced from the impact (pushed backward, perhaps even thrown to the ground by the impact), this is a block, because she changed her orientation in-place?

As an aside, what if we take this to the extreme? A defender is stationary in the line from the ball handler to the basket, but has her back to the defender, and the ball handler decides to dribble directly through the defender (who is facing 180 degrees from the ball handler) and displaces the defender noticeably, what is the rule here?

Thank you for your guidance.

A defender is allowed to brace, "how much" is at the discretion of the officials on the floor that night. Realistically we don't want them twisting half their body, covering their head, falling, and crouching into the fetal position at the same time. Mostly all this creates MORE danger for injury than just taking the hit, landing, sliding back, and moving on.

Everyone is entitled to a spot on the floor. Your second scenario is a foul on the ball handler.

[jeremy341a]

This is not far off from a carry if it isn't one. Is this the reason that the defense is not just shy of being in position?

[so cal lurker]

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

This is not far off from a carry if it isn't one. Is this the reason that the defense is not just shy of being in position?

While I think that would have been called a carry back when I played, if that was called a carry today, there would be a lot of calls in the games I watch. It appears to me (from the comfort of the stands) that just as with determining when a dribble ends for determining a travel, this is a call that has swung significantly to favor offensive players.

[jamesshank]

And I do not have a carry.

Not sure why the first two dribbles are not a carry; to me, seemed like the ball came to rest in her hand each time.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Rich]

Originally Posted by jamesshank

Not sure why the first two dribbles are not a carry; to me, seemed like the ball came to rest in her hand each time.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Have at it if you want to cal those.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

NFHS R4-S23-A3c (and the wording would be the same for NCAA Men's/Women's and FIBA) says:

After the initial legal guarding position is obtained the guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.

Moving laterally means the paths of the defensive player and the offensive player are parallel to each other.


1) At time T0: B-32 is at point B0; W-4 is at point W0; and W-4 has obtained a LGP with respect to B32.

2) At time T1: B-32 is at point B1; W-4 is at point W1; B-32 changes her direction of movement thereby establishing a new straight line of movement called Li32 toward point B3; and W-4 changes her direction of movement thereby establishing a new straight line of movement called Li4 toward point W3.

3) B-32 moves along Li32 and W-4 moves along Li4 until they come into contact with each other at time T2. W-4 and B-32 contact each other where lines L32 and W4 intersect at point PI.

4) If the angle formed by W1-PI-B1 is equal to 0 degrees but less than or equal to 90 degrees then B-32 is responsible for the contact. If the angle formed by W1-P1-B1 is greater than 90 degrees then W-4 is responsible for the contact.

MTD, Sr.