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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 14, 2017, 11:25pm
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How would this play have been ruled in the years prior to the "team control" on a throw in rule change?
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 15, 2017, 12:40am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfp View Post
The actual sequence of events:
  1. Ball held across plane by A1.
  2. B1 contacts ball on the inbounds side of the plan, dislodging ball from A1's hands.
  3. Ball becomes loose inbounds.
  4. Official, sensing something wrong happened, blows whistle inadvertently.


rfp:

Based upon what you just wrote. I would say that Team A gets the ball for a non-AP Throw-in. Why? Because B1's slapping the ball ended Team A's AP Throw-in, but did not end Team A's Team Control of the Ball. The inadvertent whistle made the ball Dead while Team A was in control of the ball.

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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 15, 2017, 12:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
rfp:

Based upon what you just wrote. I would say that Team A gets the ball for a non-AP Throw-in. Why? Because B1's slapping the ball ended Team A's AP Throw-in, but did not end Team A's Team Control of the Ball. The inadvertent whistle made the ball Dead while Team A was in control of the ball.

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Maybe Billy can pull up the POEs. One is 2014/15. Team control ended when the throw in ended. Ball is now inbounds under no team's control. They added to the definition of team control foul,4-19-7 I think, that it is team control foul if offense commits foul from start of Thtow in until ball is secured. The POEs clearly say this is only for foul purposes. Once ball on court after tip there is no team control for any other reason. BC, 10 seconds etc. Inadvertent whistles... Its not clear in rules but is in POEs. Bsll goes to arrow here.

Last edited by BigCat; Sun Jan 15, 2017 at 01:01pm.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 15, 2017, 01:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
Maybe Billy can pull up the POEs. One is 2014/15. Team control ended when the throw in ended. Ball is now inbounds under no team's control. They added to the definition of team control foul,4-19-7 I think, that it is team control foul if offense commits foul from start of Thtow in until ball is secured. The POEs clearly say this is only for foul purposes. Once ball on court after tip there is no team control for any other reason. BC, 10 seconds etc. Inadvertent whistles... Its not clear in rules but is in POEs. Bsll goes to arrow here.
I disagree with that and it is inconsistent too.

I believe team control, for the purposes of fouls, begins when the team has the ball for a throwin. Nothing the NFHS has said indicates that it ends when the ball is tipped but not secured. They defined team control to start when the player has the ball for a throwin and that it only applied to fouls. They didn't change how team control ended.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 15, 2017, 01:13pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I disagree with that and it is inconsistent too.

I believe team control, for the purposes of fouls, begins when the team has the ball for a throwin. Nothing the NFHS has said indicates that it ends when the ball is tipped but not secured. They defined team control to start when the player has the ball for a throwin and that it only applied to fouls. They didn't change how team control ended.
I think that is what I said. 4-19-7 says team control "foul" is any foul by offense from beginning of throw in until ball secured. That's an artificial definition to make sure offense doesn't shoot FTs even if ball tipped(throw in ends) and they foul before ball secured. Once the ball is tipped, there really is no longer team control. That's why they added that it is a team control foul until ball secured. It is inconsistent and done simply so FTs aren't shot.

For every other rule, BC, 3 seconds, inadvertent whistles, regular rules apply. No team control inbounds. ball goes arrow. We are on same side of this but may say it differently.

The first change to this said there was team control during a throwin. So no FTs for fouks "during" throw in. They realized when balls were tipped, throwin was over , offense fouls..they were still shooting FTs. So they added the phrase "until ball secured" to eliminate the FTs.

For every other reason in book, when ball is tipped, it's now inbounds and regular rules apply. There is no team control. I think we are 6 of 1 half dozen etc. The POEs do set it out very clearly....if we can find them

Last edited by BigCat; Sun Jan 15, 2017 at 01:26pm.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 15, 2017, 01:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
Maybe Billy can pull up the POEs ... 2014/15.
2014-15 NFHS Points of Emphasis.

4. Team Control Status During Throw In: Since a 2011-12 rules change, team control exists during a throw-in when the thrower-in has the ball at his/her disposal. The change was made ONLY, to eliminate the penalty of administering free throw(s) when a teammate of the throw-in commits a common foul during the throw-in. The change made the penalty consistent with the penalty for other team control fouls. The penalty now is the awarding of a throw-in to the opposing team at the spot out-of-bounds nearest to where the foul occurred.

NOTE: Team control during a throw-in is not intended to be equated to player control status inbounds which creates team control status inbounds. During the throw-in, 10 seconds, 3-seconds, frontcourt status, backcourt status, closely guarded, etc... are not factors as there has yet to be player control/team control status obtained inbounds.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 15, 2017, 01:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
2014-15 NFHS Points of Emphasis.

4. Team Control Status During Throw In: Since a 2011-12 rules change, team control exists during a throw-in when the thrower-in has the ball at his/her disposal. The change was made ONLY, to eliminate the penalty of administering free throw(s) when a teammate of the throw-in commits a common foul during the throw-in. The change made the penalty consistent with the penalty for other team control fouls. The penalty now is the awarding of a throw-in to the opposing team at the spot out-of-bounds nearest to where the foul occurred.

NOTE: Team control during a throw-in is not intended to be equated to player control status inbounds which creates team control status inbounds. During the throw-in, 10 seconds, 3-seconds, frontcourt status, backcourt status, closely guarded, etc... are not factors as there has yet to be player control/team control status obtained inbounds.
There's also another one that addresses the addition of the language"until ball secured." Just expands definition of team control FOUL to include balls tipped and until secured.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 15, 2017, 04:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
2014-15 NFHS Points of Emphasis.

4. Team Control Status During Throw In: Since a 2011-12 rules change, team control exists during a throw-in when the thrower-in has the ball at his/her disposal. The change was made ONLY, to eliminate the penalty of administering free throw(s) when a teammate of the throw-in commits a common foul during the throw-in. The change made the penalty consistent with the penalty for other team control fouls. The penalty now is the awarding of a throw-in to the opposing team at the spot out-of-bounds nearest to where the foul occurred.

NOTE: Team control during a throw-in is not intended to be equated to player control status inbounds which creates team control status inbounds. During the throw-in, 10 seconds, 3-seconds, frontcourt status, backcourt status, closely guarded, etc... are not factors as there has yet to be player control/team control status obtained inbounds.
With this in mind, could we not say no team control and at least go to the arrow? B has made a good defensive play. It is unfair (sometimes NFHS rules are) to give the ball back to A.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 15, 2017, 05:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
With this in mind, could we not say no team control and at least go to the arrow? B has made a good defensive play. It is unfair (sometimes NFHS rules are) to give the ball back to A.
Team control for throwin and until ball secured applies only to fouls. If a foul isn't involved, once ball is touched inbounds we go to regular team control rules. The ball is loose, no team has established control inbounds. now the whistle blows. Going to the arrow is what is required.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 15, 2017, 07:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
Team control for throwin and until ball secured applies only to fouls. If a foul isn't involved, once ball is touched inbounds we go to regular team control rules. The ball is loose, no team has established control inbounds. now the whistle blows. Going to the arrow is what is required.
Not according to some in this thread.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 15, 2017, 07:29pm
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Let me know when this makes the rulebook or casebook. Till then, I'm out of this thread.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 15, 2017, 08:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
With this in mind, could we not say no team control and at least go to the arrow? B has made a good defensive play. It is unfair (sometimes NFHS rules are) to give the ball back to A.
IW results are often unfair.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 17, 2017, 11:36am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
Let me know when this makes the rulebook or casebook. Till then, I'm out of this thread.
Perhaps we can attempt to read a plate full of tea leaves to divine the ruling.

I know what I'm doing for now. If the Fed wishes to fix the rules, I'll adjust.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 17, 2017, 12:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Welpe View Post
Perhaps we can attempt to read a plate full of tea leaves to divine the ruling.

I know what I'm doing for now. If the Fed wishes to fix the rules, I'll adjust.
It should be a lot clearer etc so i know where you are coming from. Here's something I'm thinking..and remembering why i say what I'm saying…in addition to the POE.

How long has the player/team control definition rule 4-12 been in its current form? I'm wondering and thinking it has been in its current form for quite a while. Team control when a player has disposal of ball for throw in has been there because that is the point when the other team is no longer allowed to call a timeout. The other portions of that rule deal with the ball once it is inbounds. I'm thinking that the actual wording in the definition of team control hasn't changed. 4-12.

What has changed, and I'm thinking the only thing that has changed, is the definition of "team control foul" in 4-19-7. They added the language to say it is a team control FOUL from start of throw in until ball secured. That is why i say they just created this artificial rule for fouls only. I don't think the definition of team control in 4-12 itself changed. They just wanted to reach a result of not shooting FTs. We know for 10 seconds, 3 seconds, 5 seconds etc there has to be team control inbounds.

If 4-12 has changed substantially ill have to rethink it. I DO AGREE IT SHOULD BE CLEARER. THE POE could be put in the rule.

Last edited by BigCat; Tue Jan 17, 2017 at 12:46pm.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 17, 2017, 12:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
It should be a lot clearer etc so i know where you are coming from. Here's something I'm thinking..and remembering why i say what I'm saying..

How long has the player/team control definition rule 4-12 been in its current form? I'm wondering and thinking it has been in its current form for quite a while. Team control when a player has disposal of ball for throw in has been there because that is the point when the other team is no longer allowed to call a timeout. The other portions of that rule deal with the ball once it is inbounds. I'm thinking that the actual wording in the definition of team control hasn't changed. 4-12.

What has changed, and I'm thinking the only thing that has changed, is the definition of "team control foul" in 4-19-7. They added the language to say it is a team control FOUL from start of throw in until ball secured. That is why i say they just created this artificial rule for fouls only. I don't think the definition of team control in 4-12 itself changed. They just wanted to reach a result of not shooting FTs. We know for 10 seconds, 3 seconds, 5 seconds etc there has to be team control inbounds.

If 4-12 has changed substantially ill have to rethink it. I DO AGREE IT SHOULD BE CLEARER. THE POE could be put in the rule.
Really, they should just fix the sloppy drafting that led to unintended consequences and required interps. They can get rid of this mess by taking TC out of the TI, and changing the def of a TC foul to a foul that occurs either (1) when there is TC, or (2) during throw in (with appropriate definition of when that ends for purposes of TC). Sometimes the instinct (not just here, but in life) is to try to tinker to fix rather than just identify the actual problem and go back and fix it properly.
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