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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 13, 2017, 04:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
Well, this then does look like I had it right. Ball is loose, should be no whistle and he just blows it cause feels something wrong. This does go to arrow.
Again, when did team control end?
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 13, 2017, 04:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Welpe View Post
Again, when did team control end?
When B knocked ball out of his hands. That's when the throw in ended. Now, they will still call it a team control foul if A fouks anybody before ball is secured but that is only for foul purposes. It is not really team control when bslk is loose after being touched. There is no team control once ball loose on floor after the throw in ends. Reason why we don't have backcourt violations etc

Last edited by BigCat; Fri Jan 13, 2017 at 04:31pm.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 13, 2017, 04:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
When B knocked ball out of his hands. That's when the throw in ended.
Support that with a rule reference.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 13, 2017, 04:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Welpe View Post
Support that with a rule reference.
Welp, look at 4-19-7. That is definition of team control foul. The first half of it says team control foul is a foul by team in control. If, there was team control after the throw in ended, when ball tipped, there would be no reason for that section to say more.....BUT it does

"Or by a member of the throw in team from start of throw in until player control secured inbounds. "

The rules recognize that team control "during throw in" ends when the throw in ends. They add the "until ball secured/player control" because they don't want to shoot FTs for offensive fouls during the scramble.

When team control was added to throw in it said team control exists during throwin. We all know throw in ends when ball touched. So when it first came in, a ball could be deflected, then offense foul and we still shoot FTs. Ball tipped, throw in over: ball loose no team in control.

The last part was added because they did not want to shoot FTs for offensive fouls committed after throw in ended but before ball secured.

This is aggravating because you can't get this from reading the rules for the most part I don't think. There were POEs that came with it each time there was a change.

Last edited by BigCat; Fri Jan 13, 2017 at 04:48pm.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 13, 2017, 04:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
So if while the ball is loose, A1 pushes B1, and B is in the bonus, would you shoot FTs?
Before reading BC's post a little earlier I would have said "yes", as the throw-in ended when the ball was knocked loose, thus ending the provision of there being team control during a throw-in. And neither team had control of the ball in bounds.

But after reading his post that the provision for team control to exist during a throw-in for foul purposes continues until the other team (aka Team B) gains control, I'll change my answer to "no".
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 13, 2017, 04:46pm
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You're stretching a rule that doesn't apply in this situation to make it fit.

The rules for when team control starts and when it ends are clear:

ART. 2

A team is in control of the ball:

a. When a player of the team is in control.

b. While a live ball is being passed among teammates.

c. During an interrupted dribble.

d. When a player of the team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in.

ART. 3

Team control continues until:

a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.

b. An opponent secures control.

c. The ball becomes dead.


There is nothing in Article 3 that says that Team Control has ended yet ergo it hasn't ended. The proper thing to do here is to give the ball back to Team A because nothing in the rules has ended Team Control.

As an aside, only by long lost interpretation do we all know that there shouldn't be a back court violation on a throw-in. A plain reading of the rules says it would be a violation.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 13, 2017, 04:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Welpe View Post
You're stretching a rule that doesn't apply in this situation to make it fit.

The rules for when team control starts and when it ends are clear:

ART. 2

A team is in control of the ball:

a. When a player of the team is in control.

b. While a live ball is being passed among teammates.

c. During an interrupted dribble.

d. When a player of the team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in.

ART. 3

Team control continues until:

a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.

b. An opponent secures control.

c. The ball becomes dead.


There is nothing in Article 3 that says that Team Control has ended yet ergo it hasn't ended. The proper thing to do here is to give the ball back to Team A because nothing in the rules has ended Team Control.

As an aside, only by long lost interpretation do we all know that there shouldn't be a back court violation on a throw-in. A plain reading of the rules says it would be a violation.
No. I'm not stretching. The rules aren't written clearly. I'd bet my own house on this one. The POEs were very clear and should have made it to a place where they could be looked up. Like in the rule book.

I remember each change of the rule and each POE. That's my biggest gripe on nfhs. They say things in a POE but don't include it in the rules. Maybe Billy will come along and find them.

Last edited by BigCat; Fri Jan 13, 2017 at 04:59pm.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 13, 2017, 05:08pm
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What Welpe keeps asking.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 13, 2017, 05:19pm
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There are two types of team control. While the rules are poorly written in this area, the NFHS has made its intentions clear.

Let's call them "Preliminary Team Control" and "Full Team Control". (That isn't what they're called, just what I'm calling them for the sake of discussion).

Preliminary Team Control begins when the thrower has the ball for a throwin.
Full Team Control begins when a player inbounds obtains player control.

Both end in the same way....a try is released, the other team gains control, or the ball becomes dead.

Team Control fouls are defined to happen whenever there is either....no FTs for any foul by the offense from the time they have the throwin until the time when team control is defined to end.

All other issues that depend on team control go by Full Team Control.

So, when the ball became loose on the inadvertent whistle, the throwin had ended but there was no Full Team Control. Since the throwin ended but Full Team Control had not yet been established, the resumption of play would be based on the AP arrow.

This is how we can have team control fouls on a throwin but no backcourt violation until after a player inbounds has player control.
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Last edited by Camron Rust; Fri Jan 13, 2017 at 05:23pm.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 13, 2017, 05:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
What Welpe keeps asking.
See Camrons response. You can't get this clearly from the rules but the POEs set it out very clearly when rules changes made. Which is obviously why they didn't make it in rules.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 13, 2017, 05:33pm
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I know the whole discussion. I'm just amazed that you have to go through such gymnastics to describe it.

In the meantime, I'm likely giving it back to A and putting it in play.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 13, 2017, 05:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
I know the whole discussion. I'm just amazed that you have to go through such gymnastics to describe it.

In the meantime, I'm likely giving it back to A and putting it in play.
Well, I have had a recent head injury. And I do like to get it right. I wouldn't have to go through gymnastics if they'd put the POEs in rules.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 13, 2017, 05:39pm
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Well, yeah. That's my point. How many officials actually understand all this? a
For every one on this forum there are THOUSANDS who are not. How many associations cover this thoroughly?

No rule coverage, no caseplays....
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 13, 2017, 05:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
Well, yeah. That's my point. How many officials actually understand all this? a
For every one on this forum there are THOUSANDS who are not. How many associations cover this thoroughly?

No rule coverage, no caseplays....
Preaching to choir. Drives me crazy. Elbow rule really aggravates me. Nothing in rules about it....
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 13, 2017, 06:17pm
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The POE from 2014/15 discusses it. There's a better one somewhere. I plugged in "throw in point of emphasis" in Internet to find 2014 one...
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