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Old Fri Jan 13, 2017, 02:37pm
rfp rfp is offline
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Question Inadvertent Whistle - what's the POI?

Team A has the ball out of bounds on their front-court baseline. Inbounder A1 holds the ball through the plane where defender B1 legally swipes it out of his hands since it is on the inbounds side of the plane. Partner blows whistle thinking it's a technical foul then comes up to me for help, realizing it was a legal play. We decided to go with the AP arrow, but upon further thinking, I believe we should have returned the ball to Team A for a throw-in since Team A was last in control at the time of the inadvertent whistle. Game ended up a blow-out, so no impact to the call either way. What's the POI in this sitch?
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Old Fri Jan 13, 2017, 02:41pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfp View Post
Team A has the ball out of bounds on their front-court baseline. Inbounder A1 holds the ball through the plane where defender B1 legally swipes it out of his hands since it is on the inbounds side of the plane. Partner blows whistle thinking it's a technical foul then comes up to me for help, realizing it was a legal play. We decided to go with the AP arrow, but upon further thinking, I believe we should have returned the ball to Team A for a throw-in since Team A was last in control at the time of the inadvertent whistle. Game ended up a blow-out, so no impact to the call either way. What's the POI in this sitch?
Is there team control in a throw in? Did team control end?
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Old Fri Jan 13, 2017, 03:02pm
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Originally Posted by rfp View Post
Team A has the ball out of bounds on their front-court baseline. Inbounder A1 holds the ball through the plane where defender B1 legally swipes it out of his hands since it is on the inbounds side of the plane. Partner blows whistle thinking it's a technical foul then comes up to me for help, realizing it was a legal play. We decided to go with the AP arrow, but upon further thinking, I believe we should have returned the ball to Team A for a throw-in since Team A was last in control at the time of the inadvertent whistle. Game ended up a blow-out, so no impact to the call either way. What's the POI in this sitch?
There is team control during a throw in. However, when the ball is knocked out of the thrower ins hands the throw in has ended. There's no team control "inbounds." Using the arrow was correct.

Now, remember, there is a definition of a team control foul. It is a team control foul if the offense fouls during the throwin or after it but before ball is secured. They have said this because they don't want FTs if the offense fouls once the throw in ends and while a scramble is going on. There is no team control "inbounds" once the ball is tipped but they still call it a "team control foul" to reach a desired result.

The definitions are weird but I think I said it correctly.
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Old Fri Jan 13, 2017, 03:07pm
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My original thought was give ball to B on endline since it appears to be a legal steal. But then I read it again and it said A had control when the whistle blew. Now I've confused myselfr
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Old Fri Jan 13, 2017, 03:16pm
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Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef View Post
My original thought was give ball to B on endline since it appears to be a legal steal. But then I read it again and it said A had control when the whistle blew. Now I've confused myselfr
He said ball was swiped. Knocked away. He said A"" was last to have it.presumably he meant because they had it during throw in. I viewed it as ball bouncing around when whistle blew.

There's team control for throwin purposes and team control "inbound." Two things.
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Old Fri Jan 13, 2017, 03:21pm
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Count me in the "AP" crowd (not to be confused with the awesome British comedy "The IT Crowd").

BTW, I've had to explain to people that team control during a throw-in is for foul purposes, and shouldn't be used to try and explain other calls... such as backcourt violations.
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Old Fri Jan 13, 2017, 03:59pm
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Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
He said ball was swiped. Knocked away. He said A"" was last to have it.presumably he meant because they had it during throw in. I viewed it as ball bouncing around when whistle blew.

There's team control for throwin purposes and team control "inbound." Two things.


I took it to mean that whistle blew when the ball was in A's hands and being swiped by B.
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Old Fri Jan 13, 2017, 04:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
There's no team control "inbounds."
When did Team Control end?
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Old Fri Jan 13, 2017, 04:04pm
rfp rfp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
There's team control for throwin purposes and team control "inbound." Two things.
What's the rule reference for these two "versions" of team control? If so, there's a different outcome if the same inadvertent whistle happens during an interrupted dribble. What's the rationale for the different treatment?
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Old Fri Jan 13, 2017, 04:10pm
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Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef View Post
I took it to mean that whistle blew when the ball was in A's hands and being swiped by B.
duh, I've had a recent head injury. The official blew the whistle for the contact with the ball. Thrower in was still holding it. Throwin not over. Ball goes back to them. No arrow. I'm sorry. I'm the one not reading it right....thinking straight , etc. Sharp as a marble. Sorry all...

Last edited by BigCat; Fri Jan 13, 2017 at 04:15pm.
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Old Fri Jan 13, 2017, 04:17pm
rfp rfp is offline
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The actual sequence of events:
  1. Ball held across plane by A1.
  2. B1 contacts ball on the inbounds side of the plan, dislodging ball from A1's hands.
  3. Ball becomes loose inbounds.
  4. Official, sensing something wrong happened, blows whistle inadvertently.
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Old Fri Jan 13, 2017, 04:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
There is team control during a throw in. However, when the ball is knocked out of the thrower ins hands the throw in has ended. There's no team control "inbounds." Using the arrow was correct.

Now, remember, there is a definition of a team control foul. It is a team control foul if the offense fouls during the throwin or after it but before ball is secured. They have said this because they don't want FTs if the offense fouls once the throw in ends and while a scramble is going on. There is no team control "inbounds" once the ball is tipped but they still call it a "team control foul" to reach a desired result.

The definitions are weird but I think I said it correctly.
Can you provide rule #s to review those definitions?
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Old Fri Jan 13, 2017, 04:20pm
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Originally Posted by BryanV21 View Post
Count me in the "AP" crowd (not to be confused with the awesome British comedy "The IT Crowd").

BTW, I've had to explain to people that team control during a throw-in is for foul purposes, and shouldn't be used to try and explain other calls... such as backcourt violations.
So if while the ball is loose, A1 pushes B1, and B is in the bonus, would you shoot FTs?
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Old Fri Jan 13, 2017, 04:21pm
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Well, if the player knocked the ball out of the thrower's hands, the thrower didn't have the ball in his hands when the whistle blew. So isn't the question really whether POI based on the moment the whistle blew (loose ball, AP) or upon what caused the whistle (ball still in hands at moment of erroneously perceived violation, still A's ball)?
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Old Fri Jan 13, 2017, 04:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfp View Post
The actual sequence of events:
  1. Ball held across plane by A1.
  2. B1 contacts ball on the inbounds side of the plan, dislodging ball from A1's hands.
  3. Ball becomes loose inbounds.
  4. Official, sensing something wrong happened, blows whistle inadvertently.
Well, this then does look like I had it right. Ball is loose, should be no whistle and he just blows it cause feels something wrong. This does go to arrow.

It isn't as if he blew whistle at time of contact thinking T. Ball was loose then he blows. Arrow is right.
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