Inadvertent Whistle - what's the POI?

[BlueDevilRef]

Originally Posted by BigCat

He said ball was swiped. Knocked away. He said A"" was last to have it.presumably he meant because they had it during throw in. I viewed it as ball bouncing around when whistle blew.

There's team control for throwin purposes and team control "inbound." Two things.

I took it to mean that whistle blew when the ball was in A's hands and being swiped by B.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

I took it to mean that whistle blew when the ball was in A's hands and being swiped by B.

duh, I've had a recent head injury. The official blew the whistle for the contact with the ball. Thrower in was still holding it. Throwin not over. Ball goes back to them. No arrow. I'm sorry. I'm the one not reading it right....thinking straight , etc. Sharp as a marble. Sorry all...

[rfp]

The actual sequence of events:

1. Ball held across plane by A1.
2. B1 contacts ball on the inbounds side of the plan, dislodging ball from A1's hands.
3. Ball becomes loose inbounds.
4. Official, sensing something wrong happened, blows whistle inadvertently.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by rfp

The actual sequence of events:

1. Ball held across plane by A1.
2. B1 contacts ball on the inbounds side of the plan, dislodging ball from A1's hands.
3. Ball becomes loose inbounds.
4. Official, sensing something wrong happened, blows whistle inadvertently.

Well, this then does look like I had it right. Ball is loose, should be no whistle and he just blows it cause feels something wrong. This does go to arrow.

It isn't as if he blew whistle at time of contact thinking T. Ball was loose then he blows. Arrow is right.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Well, this then does look like I had it right. Ball is loose, should be no whistle and he just blows it cause feels something wrong. This does go to arrow.

Again, when did team control end?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Again, when did team control end?

When B knocked ball out of his hands. That's when the throw in ended. Now, they will still call it a team control foul if A fouks anybody before ball is secured but that is only for foul purposes. It is not really team control when bslk is loose after being touched. There is no team control once ball loose on floor after the throw in ends. Reason why we don't have backcourt violations etc

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by BigCat

When B knocked ball out of his hands. That's when the throw in ended.

Support that with a rule reference.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by rfp

The actual sequence of events:

1. Ball held across plane by A1.
2. B1 contacts ball on the inbounds side of the plan, dislodging ball from A1's hands.
3. Ball becomes loose inbounds.
4. Official, sensing something wrong happened, blows whistle inadvertently.

rfp:

Based upon what you just wrote. I would say that Team A gets the ball for a non-AP Throw-in. Why? Because B1's slapping the ball ended Team A's AP Throw-in, but did not end Team A's Team Control of the Ball. The inadvertent whistle made the ball Dead while Team A was in control of the ball.

MTD, Sr.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

rfp:

Based upon what you just wrote. I would say that Team A gets the ball for a non-AP Throw-in. Why? Because B1's slapping the ball ended Team A's AP Throw-in, but did not end Team A's Team Control of the Ball. The inadvertent whistle made the ball Dead while Team A was in control of the ball.

MTD, Sr.

Maybe Billy can pull up the POEs. One is 2014/15. Team control ended when the throw in ended. Ball is now inbounds under no team's control. They added to the definition of team control foul,4-19-7 I think, that it is team control foul if offense commits foul from start of Thtow in until ball is secured. The POEs clearly say this is only for foul purposes. Once ball on court after tip there is no team control for any other reason. BC, 10 seconds etc. Inadvertent whistles... Its not clear in rules but is in POEs. Bsll goes to arrow here.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Maybe Billy can pull up the POEs. One is 2014/15. Team control ended when the throw in ended. Ball is now inbounds under no team's control. They added to the definition of team control foul,4-19-7 I think, that it is team control foul if offense commits foul from start of Thtow in until ball is secured. The POEs clearly say this is only for foul purposes. Once ball on court after tip there is no team control for any other reason. BC, 10 seconds etc. Inadvertent whistles... Its not clear in rules but is in POEs. Bsll goes to arrow here.

I disagree with that and it is inconsistent too.

I believe team control, for the purposes of fouls, begins when the team has the ball for a throwin. Nothing the NFHS has said indicates that it ends when the ball is tipped but not secured. They defined team control to start when the player has the ball for a throwin and that it only applied to fouls. They didn't change how team control ended.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I disagree with that and it is inconsistent too.

I believe team control, for the purposes of fouls, begins when the team has the ball for a throwin. Nothing the NFHS has said indicates that it ends when the ball is tipped but not secured. They defined team control to start when the player has the ball for a throwin and that it only applied to fouls. They didn't change how team control ended.

I think that is what I said. 4-19-7 says team control "foul" is any foul by offense from beginning of throw in until ball secured. That's an artificial definition to make sure offense doesn't shoot FTs even if ball tipped(throw in ends) and they foul before ball secured. Once the ball is tipped, there really is no longer team control. That's why they added that it is a team control foul until ball secured. It is inconsistent and done simply so FTs aren't shot.

For every other rule, BC, 3 seconds, inadvertent whistles, regular rules apply. No team control inbounds. ball goes arrow. We are on same side of this but may say it differently.

The first change to this said there was team control during a throwin. So no FTs for fouks "during" throw in. They realized when balls were tipped, throwin was over , offense fouls..they were still shooting FTs. So they added the phrase "until ball secured" to eliminate the FTs.

For every other reason in book, when ball is tipped, it's now inbounds and regular rules apply. There is no team control. I think we are 6 of 1 half dozen etc. The POEs do set it out very clearly....if we can find them

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Maybe Billy can pull up the POEs ... 2014/15.

2014-15 NFHS Points of Emphasis.

4. Team Control Status During Throw In: Since a 2011-12 rules change, team control exists during a throw-in when the thrower-in has the ball at his/her disposal. The change was made ONLY, to eliminate the penalty of administering free throw(s) when a teammate of the throw-in commits a common foul during the throw-in. The change made the penalty consistent with the penalty for other team control fouls. The penalty now is the awarding of a throw-in to the opposing team at the spot out-of-bounds nearest to where the foul occurred.

NOTE: Team control during a throw-in is not intended to be equated to player control status inbounds which creates team control status inbounds. During the throw-in, 10 seconds, 3-seconds, frontcourt status, backcourt status, closely guarded, etc... are not factors as there has yet to be player control/team control status obtained inbounds.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

2014-15 NFHS Points of Emphasis.

4. Team Control Status During Throw In: Since a 2011-12 rules change, team control exists during a throw-in when the thrower-in has the ball at his/her disposal. The change was made ONLY, to eliminate the penalty of administering free throw(s) when a teammate of the throw-in commits a common foul during the throw-in. The change made the penalty consistent with the penalty for other team control fouls. The penalty now is the awarding of a throw-in to the opposing team at the spot out-of-bounds nearest to where the foul occurred.

NOTE: Team control during a throw-in is not intended to be equated to player control status inbounds which creates team control status inbounds. During the throw-in, 10 seconds, 3-seconds, frontcourt status, backcourt status, closely guarded, etc... are not factors as there has yet to be player control/team control status obtained inbounds.

There's also another one that addresses the addition of the language"until ball secured." Just expands definition of team control FOUL to include balls tipped and until secured.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

2014-15 NFHS Points of Emphasis.

4. Team Control Status During Throw In: Since a 2011-12 rules change, team control exists during a throw-in when the thrower-in has the ball at his/her disposal. The change was made ONLY, to eliminate the penalty of administering free throw(s) when a teammate of the throw-in commits a common foul during the throw-in. The change made the penalty consistent with the penalty for other team control fouls. The penalty now is the awarding of a throw-in to the opposing team at the spot out-of-bounds nearest to where the foul occurred.

NOTE: Team control during a throw-in is not intended to be equated to player control status inbounds which creates team control status inbounds. During the throw-in, 10 seconds, 3-seconds, frontcourt status, backcourt status, closely guarded, etc... are not factors as there has yet to be player control/team control status obtained inbounds.

With this in mind, could we not say no team control and at least go to the arrow? B has made a good defensive play. It is unfair (sometimes NFHS rules are) to give the ball back to A.

[so cal lurker]

Well, if the player knocked the ball out of the thrower's hands, the thrower didn't have the ball in his hands when the whistle blew. So isn't the question really whether POI based on the moment the whistle blew (loose ball, AP) or upon what caused the whistle (ball still in hands at moment of erroneously perceived violation, still A's ball)?