Inadvertent Whistle - what's the POI?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

My original thought was give ball to B on endline since it appears to be a legal steal. But then I read it again and it said A had control when the whistle blew. Now I've confused myselfr

He said ball was swiped. Knocked away. He said A"" was last to have it.presumably he meant because they had it during throw in. I viewed it as ball bouncing around when whistle blew.

There's team control for throwin purposes and team control "inbound." Two things.

[BryanV21]

Count me in the "AP" crowd (not to be confused with the awesome British comedy "The IT Crowd").

BTW, I've had to explain to people that team control during a throw-in is for foul purposes, and shouldn't be used to try and explain other calls... such as backcourt violations.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Count me in the "AP" crowd (not to be confused with the awesome British comedy "The IT Crowd").

BTW, I've had to explain to people that team control during a throw-in is for foul purposes, and shouldn't be used to try and explain other calls... such as backcourt violations.

So if while the ball is loose, A1 pushes B1, and B is in the bonus, would you shoot FTs?

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

So if while the ball is loose, A1 pushes B1, and B is in the bonus, would you shoot FTs?

Before reading BC's post a little earlier I would have said "yes", as the throw-in ended when the ball was knocked loose, thus ending the provision of there being team control during a throw-in. And neither team had control of the ball in bounds.

But after reading his post that the provision for team control to exist during a throw-in for foul purposes continues until the other team (aka Team B) gains control, I'll change my answer to "no".

[BlueDevilRef]

Originally Posted by BigCat

He said ball was swiped. Knocked away. He said A"" was last to have it.presumably he meant because they had it during throw in. I viewed it as ball bouncing around when whistle blew.

There's team control for throwin purposes and team control "inbound." Two things.

I took it to mean that whistle blew when the ball was in A's hands and being swiped by B.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

I took it to mean that whistle blew when the ball was in A's hands and being swiped by B.

duh, I've had a recent head injury. The official blew the whistle for the contact with the ball. Thrower in was still holding it. Throwin not over. Ball goes back to them. No arrow. I'm sorry. I'm the one not reading it right....thinking straight , etc. Sharp as a marble. Sorry all...

[rfp]

The actual sequence of events:

1. Ball held across plane by A1.
2. B1 contacts ball on the inbounds side of the plan, dislodging ball from A1's hands.
3. Ball becomes loose inbounds.
4. Official, sensing something wrong happened, blows whistle inadvertently.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by rfp

The actual sequence of events:

1. Ball held across plane by A1.
2. B1 contacts ball on the inbounds side of the plan, dislodging ball from A1's hands.
3. Ball becomes loose inbounds.
4. Official, sensing something wrong happened, blows whistle inadvertently.

Well, this then does look like I had it right. Ball is loose, should be no whistle and he just blows it cause feels something wrong. This does go to arrow.

It isn't as if he blew whistle at time of contact thinking T. Ball was loose then he blows. Arrow is right.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Well, this then does look like I had it right. Ball is loose, should be no whistle and he just blows it cause feels something wrong. This does go to arrow.

Again, when did team control end?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Again, when did team control end?

When B knocked ball out of his hands. That's when the throw in ended. Now, they will still call it a team control foul if A fouks anybody before ball is secured but that is only for foul purposes. It is not really team control when bslk is loose after being touched. There is no team control once ball loose on floor after the throw in ends. Reason why we don't have backcourt violations etc

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by rfp

The actual sequence of events:

1. Ball held across plane by A1.
2. B1 contacts ball on the inbounds side of the plan, dislodging ball from A1's hands.
3. Ball becomes loose inbounds.
4. Official, sensing something wrong happened, blows whistle inadvertently.

rfp:

Based upon what you just wrote. I would say that Team A gets the ball for a non-AP Throw-in. Why? Because B1's slapping the ball ended Team A's AP Throw-in, but did not end Team A's Team Control of the Ball. The inadvertent whistle made the ball Dead while Team A was in control of the ball.

MTD, Sr.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

rfp:

Based upon what you just wrote. I would say that Team A gets the ball for a non-AP Throw-in. Why? Because B1's slapping the ball ended Team A's AP Throw-in, but did not end Team A's Team Control of the Ball. The inadvertent whistle made the ball Dead while Team A was in control of the ball.

MTD, Sr.

Maybe Billy can pull up the POEs. One is 2014/15. Team control ended when the throw in ended. Ball is now inbounds under no team's control. They added to the definition of team control foul,4-19-7 I think, that it is team control foul if offense commits foul from start of Thtow in until ball is secured. The POEs clearly say this is only for foul purposes. Once ball on court after tip there is no team control for any other reason. BC, 10 seconds etc. Inadvertent whistles... Its not clear in rules but is in POEs. Bsll goes to arrow here.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Maybe Billy can pull up the POEs. One is 2014/15. Team control ended when the throw in ended. Ball is now inbounds under no team's control. They added to the definition of team control foul,4-19-7 I think, that it is team control foul if offense commits foul from start of Thtow in until ball is secured. The POEs clearly say this is only for foul purposes. Once ball on court after tip there is no team control for any other reason. BC, 10 seconds etc. Inadvertent whistles... Its not clear in rules but is in POEs. Bsll goes to arrow here.

I disagree with that and it is inconsistent too.

I believe team control, for the purposes of fouls, begins when the team has the ball for a throwin. Nothing the NFHS has said indicates that it ends when the ball is tipped but not secured. They defined team control to start when the player has the ball for a throwin and that it only applied to fouls. They didn't change how team control ended.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Maybe Billy can pull up the POEs ... 2014/15.

2014-15 NFHS Points of Emphasis.

4. Team Control Status During Throw In: Since a 2011-12 rules change, team control exists during a throw-in when the thrower-in has the ball at his/her disposal. The change was made ONLY, to eliminate the penalty of administering free throw(s) when a teammate of the throw-in commits a common foul during the throw-in. The change made the penalty consistent with the penalty for other team control fouls. The penalty now is the awarding of a throw-in to the opposing team at the spot out-of-bounds nearest to where the foul occurred.

NOTE: Team control during a throw-in is not intended to be equated to player control status inbounds which creates team control status inbounds. During the throw-in, 10 seconds, 3-seconds, frontcourt status, backcourt status, closely guarded, etc... are not factors as there has yet to be player control/team control status obtained inbounds.

[so cal lurker]

Well, if the player knocked the ball out of the thrower's hands, the thrower didn't have the ball in his hands when the whistle blew. So isn't the question really whether POI based on the moment the whistle blew (loose ball, AP) or upon what caused the whistle (ball still in hands at moment of erroneously perceived violation, still A's ball)?