Disconcerting the FT shooter

[Rooster]

Originally Posted by stripes

I have watched many officials try to be the person who was going to be an enforcer. None of them has been very successful as an official, while those who learn to manage games have been very successful.

There are lots of ways to manage this situation. Calling a T is one of them...but probably not the best one. Learn to manage people and situations effectively if you want to be successful as an official.

IMHO ignoring is not the same as managing. I'm not sure if that's how you're advocating handling this, but it seems like it. This must be dealt with in order to manage the game and that will require someone being the enforcer that you deride.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I am joining this thread late, but I would recommend that we all take a look at this thread from 2003: https://forum.officiating.com/basket...day-night.html

MTD, Sr.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I am joining this thread late, but I would recommend that we all take a look at this thread from 2003: https://forum.officiating.com/basket...day-night.html

MTD, Sr.

I read some of it Mark. I think the word "opponent" is broad enough to say I can call disconcertion on bench personnel. I do not believe opponent is limited to players on the floor. Meriam Webster says it is a person, team or group competing against another....

Yes, there are some case plays where opponent means player on court. Rule 3 talks generally about equipment and uses opponent in that to be anybody on team. Possession arrow is pointed at "opponents basket." That is a broad general use.

Now, when this happens at the bench it probably is more like unsportsmanlike. It depends on the level. Younger kids may not know it isn't right etc.

Anyway, I choose to use a broader definition of opponent. I can call disconcertion on the OPs play if I want to. I could also call the unsportsmanlike T.
However, I don't think an unsportsmanlike T on the first time this happens will make my game better. I'll give another FT and make it known that it better not happen again.

I like having more options.

[billyu2]

Would you repeat that question?:

V4 is shooting 2nd FT at the end of a game.

Entire home team (1) stands and (2) shouts (3) just before V4 goes into her shooting motion, (4) and, as she shoots.

Ruling:

a. Tell them to knock it off before making the call.
b. Ignore it.
c. Calling something would be looking for trouble.
d. Do not call it the first time.
e. Advise the coach of the rule.
f. Looking for opportunities to call T’s will open a can of worms.
g. A replacement FT is all you need.
h. There doesn’t need to be a T on the players for standing.
i. Officials looking for things like this to call never get selected to go to the
state tournament.
j. Assess a team technical to Home Team and disconcertion violation if
needed.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by billyu2

Question:

V4 is shooting 2nd FT at the end of a game.

Entire home team (1) stands and (2) shouts (3) just before V4 goes into her shooting motion, (4) and, as she shoots.

Ruling:

a. Tell them to knock it off before making the call.
b. Ignore it.
c. Calling something would be looking for trouble.
d. Do not call it the first time.
e. Advise the coach of the rule.
f. Looking for opportunities to call T’s will open a can of worms.
g. A replacement FT is all you need.
h. There doesn’t need to be a T on the players for standing.
i. Officials looking for things like this to call never get selected to go to the
state tournament.
j. Assess a team technical to Home Team and disconcertion violation if
needed.

I know I would make them sit down. If I was trail I'd be sitting them down. If they start making noise before the Free thrower goes in motion and continues making noise I'm likely not calling disconcertion or anything else. The OP was silence and then screaming at critical moment. This is different. I'd have to hear it but I wouldn't say kids can't make noise. I expect a shooter to get through that.

[BillyMac]

Easy-peasy-lemon-squeezy.

This:

Originally Posted by billyu2

A replacement FT is all you need.

Disconcertion by the opponents (delayed signal) and a replacement free throw if it misses. I wouldn't have to think twice about this, and I have the rules and interpretations to back me up.

No opponent shall disconcert the free thrower.

The official must judge whether the act distracts the free thrower. If the official judges the act in to be disconcerting, it shall be penalized. The free thrower is entitled to protection from being distracted. It is the opponent’s responsibility to avoid disconcerting the free thrower. (9-1-3c Penalty 2)

[deecee]

Originally Posted by billyu2

Would you repeat that question?:

V4 is shooting 2nd FT at the end of a game.

Entire home team (1) stands and (2) shouts (3) just before V4 goes into her shooting motion, (4) and, as she shoots.

Ruling:

a. Tell them to knock it off before making the call.
b. Ignore it.
c. Calling something would be looking for trouble.
d. Do not call it the first time.
e. Advise the coach of the rule.
f. Looking for opportunities to call T’s will open a can of worms.
g. A replacement FT is all you need.
h. There doesn’t need to be a T on the players for standing.
i. Officials looking for things like this to call never get selected to go to the
state tournament.
j. Assess a team technical to Home Team and disconcertion violation if
needed.

If the FT was critical to this team then I'm calling a violation. If it isn't I'm going to let the bench know the next time it will be a violation.

Most likely I'm sitting them before the FT is even shot. As an ex player if this throws your FT shot off you're not concentrating and/or a good FT shooter in the first place.

In no way am I dropping this T as a first recourse. Coaches, even some partners (although they won't tell me to my face), already ding me enough for being a "tighter" official on enforcing the rules and I know that costs me some games. But it's part of our rating process. Coaches and officials determine our ratings.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by deecee

If the FT was critical to this team then I'm calling a violation. If it isn't I'm going to let the bench know the next time it will be a violation.

Most likely I'm sitting them before the FT is even shot. As an ex player if this throws your FT shot off you're not concentrating and/or a good FT shooter in the first place.

In no way am I dropping this T as a first recourse. Coaches, even some partners (although they won't tell me to my face), already ding me enough for being a "tighter" official on enforcing the rules and I know that costs me some games. But it's part of our rating process. Coaches and officials determine our ratings.

Agree.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Easy-peasy-lemon-squeezy.

This:

Disconcertion by the opponents (delayed signal) and a replacement free throw if it misses. I wouldn't have to think twice about this, and I have the rules and interpretations to back me up.

No opponent shall disconcert the free thrower.

The official must judge whether the act distracts the free thrower. If the official judges the act in to be disconcerting, it shall be penalized. The free thrower is entitled to protection from being distracted. It is the opponent’s responsibility to avoid disconcerting the free thrower. (9-1-3c Penalty 2)

Good citation, Billy. Here you have a situation where an entire bench stands and shouts at an opponent while she's attempting what apparently is a critical free throw. (Why would they do it if it weren't critical?) You have rules backing there as well. 10-5-1d and 10-5-4.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by deecee

If the FT was critical to this team then I'm calling a violation. If it isn't I'm going to let the bench know the next time it will be a violation.

Most likely I'm sitting them before the FT is even shot. As an ex player if this throws your FT shot off you're not concentrating and/or a good FT shooter in the first place.

In no way am I dropping this T as a first recourse. Coaches, even some partners (although they won't tell me to my face), already ding me enough for being a "tighter" official on enforcing the rules and I know that costs me some games. But it's part of our rating process. Coaches and officials determine our ratings.

What is your definition of when the FT begins? The rule book says when ball is at disposal. Your answer is irrelevant because before the ball was at V4's disposal the opponents weren't standing and shouting. If you mean after the ball was at V4's disposal but just before V4 starts the act of shooting (which is when the home bench started their antics), are you saying you would stop play, have V4 return the ball to the Lead while you run back into the visitors back court to tell the home team bench to sit down and to remind them if it happens again the rule will be enforced? All this during an apparently critical 2nd free throw? (why would home bench be doing this if it weren't?) If I am the visitors head coach I would be furious for multiple reasons. Worms, anyone? A fresh can has just been opened.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by billyu2

What is your definition of when the FT begins? The rule book says when ball is at disposal. Your answer is irrelevant because before the ball was at V4's disposal the opponents weren't standing and shouting. If you mean after the ball was at V4's disposal but just before V4 starts the act of shooting (which is when the home bench started their antics), are you saying you would stop play, have V4 return the ball to the Lead while you run back into the visitors back court to tell the home team bench to sit down and to remind them if it happens again the rule will be enforced? All this during an apparently critical 2nd free throw? (why would home bench be doing this if it weren't?) If I am the visitors head coach I would be furious for multiple reasons. Worms, anyone? A fresh can has just been opened.

If the kids are just standing and the ball is at the disposal of the FT shooter I'm not stopping play to have them sit. If they then disconcert see my above comment. Sometimes you just have to officiate/manage the situation as it happens and there is no guide that covers all the what ifs. IMO its this that differentiates the good officials from the great ones. The ones that constantly get those amazing games because they have proven they can handle complex situations and can think on their feet.