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Old Thu Dec 08, 2016, 01:20pm
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Falling before contact

We've debated this before on here, but here's the play that I had last night and want to hear thoughts...

NFHS: Secondary defender B1 establishes LGP under the basket. Before being contacted by ball handler A1, B1 begins to fall backwards such that he does not "take" the contact and that A1 doesn't initiate any contact.

We know that a defender can turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact, but in my judgment that's not what B1 was doing. I ruled a blocking foul. However, I'm not convinced that the rules necessarily support my decision even though I've seen this play adjudicated identically in other games (NCAA and NFHS). My justification is that B1's action put airborne A1 in a dangerous position returning to the floor.

Is there anything in the rules that supports a blocking foul on this play?
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Old Thu Dec 08, 2016, 01:32pm
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I think this has come up repeatedly here before.

Was there any contact at all? If there was no contact you have no rules support for a blocking foul. "Putting a player in a dangerous position" absent contact cannot be a common foul.

By rule, you could go with a technical for 10-4-6f.

In application, I have a hard time calling a T for actions similar to what you described and have probably called similar plays a block in the past.

But there is no rules support for a blocking foul without contact simply for falling down before contact in an effort to draw a charge.
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Old Thu Dec 08, 2016, 01:45pm
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There isn't unless you feel their actions put them outside of what was legal. Otherwise, I tend to no call these if I feel a player feel before some contact. It might not be pretty, but I cannot justify calling a foul on a defender if little to no contact takes place and by all accounts they were legal.

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Old Thu Dec 08, 2016, 01:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
We've debated this before on here, but here's the play that I had last night and want to hear thoughts...

NFHS: Secondary defender B1 establishes LGP under the basket. Before being contacted by ball handler A1, B1 begins to fall backwards such that he does not "take" the contact and that A1 doesn't initiate any contact.

We know that a defender can turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact, but in my judgment that's not what B1 was doing. I ruled a blocking foul. However, I'm not convinced that the rules necessarily support my decision even though I've seen this play adjudicated identically in other games (NCAA and NFHS). My justification is that B1's action put airborne A1 in a dangerous position returning to the floor.

Is there anything in the rules that supports a blocking foul on this play?
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Originally Posted by VaTerp View Post
But there is no rules support for a blocking foul without contact simply for falling down before contact in an effort to draw a charge.
There is no rules support for a blocking foul even with contact. Defender was in LGP and is allowed to turn or duck or back away....period. A1's actions put A1 in a dangerous position, not B1's. B1's actions merely reduced any impact.
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Old Thu Dec 08, 2016, 02:07pm
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Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
There is no rules support for a blocking foul even with contact. Defender was in LGP and is allowed to turn or duck or back away....period. A1's actions put A1 in a dangerous position, not B1's. B1's actions merely reduced any impact.
What Camron said.

If B1's actions make it hard for me to tell if A1 knocked him down or if he fell due to his own lack of balance, I'll no-call it. I do this a lot at the JV level, before the kids really learn how to stay put. I am not, however, calling a blocking foul on a player with LGP.
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Old Thu Dec 08, 2016, 02:09pm
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IMO

You cannot call a block here. The defense didn't do anything illegal and you had no contact so no grounds for a common foul at all.

The issues we encounter are: A) is when there is marginal/little contact but now the defender ends up on ground. B) If you feel this was intended to fake being fouled (FYI I find that language/semantics to be impossibly limiting)

Not to open a different can of worms than the OP but in the case of A my feelings are that the defense is allowed to move backwards/sideways to protect themself. If they want to go backwards head/butt first instead of feet first that is on them I'm moving on with a no call.

In the case of B. I think you had better have something in their actions/reactions to indicate they expect a call. Throwing a T because someone is soft, scared, young, anticipating or off balance is rough.
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Old Thu Dec 08, 2016, 02:11pm
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Originally Posted by Pantherdreams View Post
IMO

You cannot call a block here. The defense didn't do anything illegal and you had no contact so no grounds for a common foul at all.

The issues we encounter are: A) is when there is marginal/little contact but now the defender ends up on ground. B) If you feel this was intended to fake being fouled (FYI I find that language/semantics to be impossibly limiting)

Not to open a different can of worms than the OP but in the case of A my feelings are that the defense is allowed to move backwards/sideways to protect themself. If they want to go backwards head/butt first instead of feet first that is on them I'm moving on with a no call.

In the case of B. I think you had better have something in their actions/reactions to indicate they expect a call. Throwing a T because someone is soft, scared, young, anticipating or off balance is rough.
Not only do they have to expect a call, but they have to know that one wasn't deserved. I've called this once, in a kids YMCA game, after warning him. The one that drew the T was a flop at the top of the key when the dribbler was still 6 feet away.
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Old Thu Dec 08, 2016, 02:13pm
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Good responses which I will keep in mind going forward.
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Old Thu Dec 08, 2016, 10:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
There is no rules support for a blocking foul even with contact. Defender was in LGP and is allowed to turn or duck or back away....period. A1's actions put A1 in a dangerous position, not B1's. B1's actions merely reduced any impact.
Maybe not entirely. Turn, duck, or back away....sure, that's permitted and maintains LGP. But to back away legally assumes you remain vertical. So if the defender keeps his feet planted but begins to sink his butt and lean back like the Tower of Pisa, and initial contact occurs as the offensive player gets tangled up in the defender's lower legs, the defender has violated the principle of verticality (Ref: 4-45-6) and this could be a block.

To align with the majority of opinions, I, too, more often than not have a no-call here. I'm just saying that I've seen it called a block and called it a block myself for the reason stated above.
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Old Fri Dec 09, 2016, 12:01am
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Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
Maybe not entirely. Turn, duck, or back away....sure, that's permitted and maintains LGP. But to back away legally assumes you remain vertical. So if the defender keeps his feet planted but begins to sink his butt and lean back like the Tower of Pisa, and initial contact occurs as the offensive player gets tangled up in the defender's lower legs, the defender has violated the principle of verticality (Ref: 4-45-6) and this could be a block.

To align with the majority of opinions, I, too, more often than not have a no-call here. I'm just saying that I've seen it called a block and called it a block myself for the reason stated above.
Violating the principle of verticality involves moving/being out of the obtained space towards the opponent, not away from the opponent. The defender legally obtained he space where his/her feet are located.
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Old Fri Dec 09, 2016, 12:14pm
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Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
Maybe not entirely. Turn, duck, or back away....sure, that's permitted and maintains LGP. But to back away legally assumes you remain vertical. So if the defender keeps his feet planted but begins to sink his butt and lean back like the Tower of Pisa, and initial contact occurs as the offensive player gets tangled up in the defender's lower legs, the defender has violated the principle of verticality (Ref: 4-45-6) and this could be a block.

To align with the majority of opinions, I, too, more often than not have a no-call here. I'm just saying that I've seen it called a block and called it a block myself for the reason stated above.
We've all seen it called a block, many of us have called a block. If it's what's expected in your area by the folks who control your assignments, by all means comply.

We just don't get to pretend there's any rule backing for it.
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Old Fri Dec 09, 2016, 01:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
Maybe not entirely. Turn, duck, or back away....sure, that's permitted and maintains LGP. But to back away legally assumes you remain vertical. So if the defender keeps his feet planted but begins to sink his butt and lean back like the Tower of Pisa, and initial contact occurs as the offensive player gets tangled up in the defender's lower legs, the defender has violated the principle of verticality (Ref: 4-45-6) and this could be a block.

To align with the majority of opinions, I, too, more often than not have a no-call here. I'm just saying that I've seen it called a block and called it a block myself for the reason stated above.
How have they violated the principle of verticality. They still have a spot on the floor. THeir legs (if that is what is making contact) are still within that cylinder. Which brings up another issue of controvery but lets stay on point. If you are saying they've gone down way early and failing legs are now the issue I get that.

Back to the point as you've stated I'm just apt to no call it and move on. The idea of whacking a kid or calling them for a foul for "protecting" themselves, especially around here with the recent emphasis on concussion training and protocols for all players. coaches and parents . . .just seems to be too big a can of worms for me to open.
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Old Fri Dec 09, 2016, 01:32pm
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The only time you would ever make the flop T is like when Adam stated, contact still several feet away and an "UUUUMMMPHHHHH!" added in.
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Old Fri Dec 09, 2016, 01:41pm
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Does anyone have a problem on OP play if the feet of the defender on the floor makes contact with the offensive player landing or rebound the miss and I call a blocking foul?
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Old Fri Dec 09, 2016, 01:51pm
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Curiously, for those that are using the term verticality here and cylinder here you know those have specific meaning. And someone falling isn't vertical or within their cylinder.

Depending on how egregiously early the fall is its a block on any contact with an airborne shooter. Most of the times the defenders properly just brace for impact but if they are half way to the floor and then there's contact, I'm not no-calling it or calling a PC.
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