Flopping to Falling and everywhere in between.

[Pantherdreams]

Falling to fake a foul = Technical foul.

Players are allowed to protect themselves.

Had an interesting discussion with a coach tonight. He must have been one of the rare ones who actually reads rule books or listens when we talk. Partner and I talked about it after game and wil bring it up at next meeting.

When does falling constitute flopping? If a kid is yelling and slapping the floor and looks like a soccer player rolling around inciting the crowd then obviously if there was minimal or no contact then you could warn and/or t them up.

What if its a block charge situation and a player is getting set then just bailing out early? If they start leaning away and anticipation of contact and are basically on their way down before contact can occur and then never does, is that flopping?

I know we can't officiate intent but the kid may not be faking a foul and warning/T'ing up a kid for being soft doesn't seem like the same call.

What is your standard for "flopping"?

FYI - I've only ever been a part of two games where t's were handed out for flopping/faking fouls. One was well deserved. The other - kid had been warned earlier and and went down hard on a play where he reaches in and gets blown by. Partner t'd him up for flopping kid get up and spits a bloody tooth out on his shoe.

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

Falling to fake a foul = Technical foul.

Falling? Flopping can take many forms, but is almost never a technical foul.

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

Players are allowed to protect themselves.

What do you mean by this?

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

Had an interesting discussion with a coach tonight. He must have been one of the rare ones who actually reads rule books or listens when we talk. Partner and I talked about it after game and wil bring it up at next meeting.

You reference this discussion with a coach but never tell us what was said. What did the coach say? How did you respond?

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

When does falling constitute flopping? If a kid is yelling and slapping the floor and looks like a soccer player rolling around inciting the crowd then obviously if there was minimal or no contact then you could warn and/or t them up.

Or they may really be hurt, as in your example below.

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

What if its a block charge situation and a player is getting set then just bailing out early? If they start leaning away and anticipation of contact and are basically on their way down before contact can occur and then never does, is that flopping?

If a player has established Legal Guarding Position and starts falling before contact occurs, I call a block. I see the player falling early as a safety risk....the offensive player may land on the defenders legs and twist an ankle or get tangled up. Whatever happens, it is less safe for all players involved.

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

I know we can't officiate intent but the kid may not be faking a foul and warning/T'ing up a kid for being soft doesn't seem like the same call.

Flopping as a basketball term is defined as "inventing or embellishing contact in order to deceive a referee into calling a foul on the other team". You must understand the difference between inventing contact where none exists (see Paul, Chris) and embellishing contact that has occured (see Miller, Reggie).

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

Partner t'd him up for flopping kid get up and spits a bloody tooth out on his shoe.

This is why you should never call a T for flopping.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by AremRed

If a player has established Legal Guarding Position and starts falling before contact occurs, I call a block.

If the defender has LGP and falls , so long as the fall does not create illegal contact, whatever else it may be, it isn't a block.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If the defender has LGP and falls , so long as the fall does not create illegal contact, whatever else it may be, it isn't a block.

Agreed. It's not illegal for the defender to brace for contact, and falling backwards with pending contact fits that for me. Falling does not involve any action that negates or removes LGP.

Flopping is not defined, as it isn't in the rule. The T is for "faking being fouled", not falling down.

I've called it. Once. And I'd do it again in that specific situation.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

... coach ... must have been one of the rare ones who actually reads rule books.

I had a coach today, in a scrimmage, after my partner called a hand check, yell to his players, "We play under National Federation of State High School Associations rules. These rules say that you can't play defense with your hands". I'm willing to bet that many coaches in my area don't even know what the NFHS is, yet know that we play under their rule set.

[Pantherdreams]

Thanks guys. There may be some slightly different language between the NFHS and FIBA rule books but the concept is basically the same.

We had a kid who would set up to take a charge and the rock back to avoid? the contact. Two/ three situations in a row she ended up hitting the ground before contact occurred. Was a girls game so there weren't shooters flying through the air or anyone for her to occupy a "landing area".

Opposing coach wanted a T for flopping. We didn't feel it was a flop just a bail out. Partner did go to talk to the player's coach about it and that we would be watching for flopping. Coach said that was fine but that you could only T a kid up for trying to fake being fouled or doing something to incite the crowd. The she kept avoiding contact and she wasn't faking being fouled she was being a "pu$$y" and you couldn't t a kid up for being soft.

Sounds like just about everyone here is on the same page. That unless a kid is blatantly trying to fake being fouled in anyway (falling down, grabbing a limb, etc) we don't really deal with it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

Thanks guys. There may be some slightly different language between the NFHS and FIBA rule books but the concept is basically the same.

We had a kid who would set up to take a charge and the rock back to avoid? the contact. Two/ three situations in a row she ended up hitting the ground before contact occurred. Was a girls game so there weren't shooters flying through the air or anyone for her to occupy a "landing area".

Opposing coach wanted a T for flopping. We didn't feel it was a flop just a bail out. Partner did go to talk to the player's coach about it and that we would be watching for flopping. Coach said that was fine but that you could only T a kid up for trying to fake being fouled or doing something to incite the crowd. The she kept avoiding contact and she wasn't faking being fouled she was being a "pu$$y" and you couldn't t a kid up for being soft.

Sounds like just about everyone here is on the same page. That unless a kid is blatantly trying to fake being fouled in anyway (falling down, grabbing a limb, etc) we don't really deal with it.

In these cases, I just no-call it. Around here, the coaches know why, and yell at the kids to stand their ground.

IMO, coach is right. Some kids just get squeamish and bail out early.

No, if by falling, she's getting herself into another player's path, you may have a block.

[BryanV21]

If the defender gets into LGP, then they have right to that vertical space. However, if by falling he/she leaves that vertical space, then wouldn't a blocking call be correct?

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

If the defender gets into LGP, then they have right to that vertical space. However, if by falling he/she leaves that vertical space, then wouldn't a blocking call be correct?

With contact, in college you would be correct, no so in HS.

[BryanV21]

I'm sorry, I was talking in terms of a block/charge call.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

If the defender gets into LGP, then they have right to that vertical space. However, if by falling he/she leaves that vertical space, then wouldn't a blocking call be correct?

Sure -- if they fall "into" the offensive player. But if they "fall" away from the defender, then contact would not be a block (unless they hit the ground in college)

Originally Posted by just another ref

If the defender has LGP and falls , so long as the fall does not create illegal contact, whatever else it may be, it isn't a block.

What would be an example of illegal contact in this case?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by AremRed

What would be an example of illegal contact in this case?

An example, for me, would be falling into the path of another player.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I'm sorry, I was talking in terms of a block/charge call.

What has the defender done to negate or lose LGP?

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Adam

What has the defender done to negate or lose LGP?

By moving out of his/her verticality... that's how. Just because one gets LGP, that doesn't mean he/she can then do whatever they want.

I understand that if they fall away from the offense then they are not at fault for the contact, and therefore are not whistled for a foul. But the foul would not be the result of having LGP, it would be the result of the offensive player being the cause of the contact.