Texas @ Michigan plays (Video)

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Based on the case book, it's any outnumbering fast break, regardless if it is defense or offense that has more players.

A.R. 101. Team A is on a 3 on 2 or a 2 on 3 fast break, and any player on Team B takes an initial guarding position (1) within the restricted area with two feet on the floor and facing the opponent, or (2) outside the restricted area with two feet on the floor and facing the opponent, in an attempt to draw a player control/charging foul. A2, after receiving a pass, crashes into the torso of the Team B player, and the official calls a player control/charging foul.

RULING 1: The official is incorrect. In any outnumbering fast break situation, all Team B players are initially secondary defenders. The Team B player may not establish initial legal guarding position inside the restricted area, and the illegal contact by B is a blocking foul.

2: The official is correct. Even though the Team B player is initially a secondary defender, he did not establish initial guarding position inside the restricted area. When illegal contact occurs, it shall be a player control/charging foul.
(Rule 4-35.4, 4-30 and 10-1.14)

Yeah i was aware of that play. depending on where, when and how many players you include, you can say even or odd just about any time. If we view the entire floor to make the decision it's likely odd every time…. i think i may just call everything odd and say don't set up initially in the arc.

Jeff, do you have any examples of "even" under the guidelines?

[deecee]

Guys the rule just says that on an uneven fastbreak defenders are INITIALLY all secondary defenders. One can become a primary defender in an uneven fastbreak when they meet the criteria. They do not remain a secondary defender UNTIL the number of players even out, they remain a secondary defender until they become a primary defender.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by deecee

Guys the rule just says that on an uneven fastbreak defenders are INITIALLY all secondary defenders. One can become a primary defender in an uneven fastbreak when they meet the criteria. They do not remain a secondary defender UNTIL the number of players even out, they remain a secondary defender until they become a primary defender.

Yes, I know initially is important and i had left that out a few pages ago. Now, I was looking at what is considered an "even" fast break. In outnumbered situations all are secondary defenders, initially, and cannot establish initial LGP in the RA.

If we call it an "even" fast break then regular rules apply. in this video, lets say number 4 is back and instead of trying to block the shot he sets up to take a charge and the first place (initial) he establishes LGP is in the RA. If we call it "even" numbered fast break he is ok because he isn't a secondary defender.

If we call this "outnumbered" --block because he established LGP initially in the RA.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BigCat

If we call this "outnumbered" --block because he established LGP initially in the RA.

Irrespective of anything the RA restriction does not apply to an defender that is airborne making a play on the ball. The only time the RA is used in a case where you would have called a PC foul however the player did not meet the requirements due to being (1) secondary (2) within the RA plane at the point of contact & (3) NOT airborne.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by deecee

Irrespective of anything the RA restriction does not apply to an defender that is airborne making a play on the ball. The only time the RA is used in a case where you would have called a PC foul however the player did not meet the requirements due to being (1) secondary (2) within the RA plane at the point of contact & (3) NOT airborne.

I know that. I'm not talking about airborne. assume for me that number 4 black initially established LGP in the RA on the ball handler. Assume he gets run over. Now, if you call that an "outnumbered" fast break its a block because he set up initially in the RA. If you say it wasn't outnumbered--"even" then charge because he's primary and can set up anywhere.

Look at Jeff's video clips (id like to know how he does that BTW). The second frame shows two offense and two defense out in front. behind them are another offense and defensive player. still even. behind them, near division line are 2 more offense and only one defense.

If i look at what i would call the point of attack, near the basket--id call this 2 on 2. If i look back a bit, i see 3 on 3. if i look back further to just inside the division line now we have an odd number. Without seeing the ncaa guidelines or videos i wouldn't really be including the guys at the division line as part of the "fast break." They are trailing the play and might be part of some secondary break. Anyway, i need to look at the guidelines and videos. i would like to see one where the ncaa calls it even as opposed to "outnumbered." thx

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I know that. I'm not talking about airborne. assume for me that number 4 black initially established LGP in the RA on the ball handler. Assume he gets run over. Now, if you call that an "outnumbered" fast break its a block because he set up initially in the RA. If you say it wasn't outnumbered--"even" then charge because he's primary and can set up anywhere.

Look at Jeff's video clips (id like to know how he does that BTW). The second frame shows two offense and two defense out in front. behind them are another offense and defensive player. still even. behind them, near division line are 2 more offense and only one defense.

If i look at what i would call the point of attack, near the basket--id call this 2 on 2. If i look back a bit, i see 3 on 3. if i look back further to just inside the division line now we have an odd number. Without seeing the ncaa guidelines or videos i wouldn't really be including the guys at the division line as part of the "fast break." They are trailing the play and might be part of some secondary break. Anyway, i need to look at the guidelines and videos. i would like to see one where the ncaa calls it even as opposed to "outnumbered." thx

You are making this more complicated than it is. If he initially obtained LGP within the RA and the contact happened within the RA then it's a block no matter what the situation. The defender is either primary or he isn't, and there are guidelines defining this. You are correct this is a 2on2 break. Even if it were a 3on2 break the players are all INITIALLY secondary. One or both of these 2 defenders CAN become primary, but they have to meet the requirements (pretty much gain LGP outside the RA). On say a 2on2 break both defenders don't have to INITIALLY be secondary. They COULD be. They could also both be primary, or one primary and one secondary.

It's on an uneven break ALL defenders secondary until they become primary.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by deecee

You are making this more complicated than it is. If he initially obtained LGP within the RA and the contact happened within the RA then it's a block no matter what the situation.

Well, you are killing me…luckily i have 8 more lives... I don't agree that if he initially obtained LGP within the RA that is's a block no matter what. If we say this is an even fast break then 4 black can first establish LGP in the RA. If it is "even" numbered, not "outnumbered", he isn't considered secondary. Secondary defenders cannot initially establish position in the RA.

A defender can be considered a primary defender even though he is yet to establish a LGP on the player near him. 4 black is primary if we say this is an even break and he can first establish LGP in the RA. The question i have is what is even and what is outnumbered and where do you look to determine it.

I have 8 more lives left so ive got time to stay after this Let me know what I'm screwing up…I realize you may not have 8 more lives so its ok if you've had enough...

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Yeah i was aware of that play. depending on where, when and how many players you include, you can say even or odd just about any time. If we view the entire floor to make the decision it's likely odd every time…. i think i may just call everything odd and say don't set up initially in the arc.

Jeff, do you have any examples of "even" under the guidelines?

I do not have a specific example other than if you are not on a break anymore, then all the defenders are defending someone. Again I think this was addressed in the NCAA video on some level, but I would have to find that in my library.

Peace